Camless Valvetrains
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- Fifth Gear
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Camless Valvetrains
How come auto manufacturers aren't using camless valvetrains by now?
I'm not educated on every aspect of this technology but I get the general idea; The camshafts are removed from the equation and replaced by electric solenoids. This frees up a sizable amount of hp and allows for complete variable control of the valve timing by the ECU and gets rid of the timing belt in the process. This in turn yields more torque throughout the rev range and increases fuel economy. I saw it once years ago in a magazine. A guy had designed it himself and had a working version on his custom built engine. Seems like combining this technology with direct injection we could really improve on the combustion engine.
I'm not educated on every aspect of this technology but I get the general idea; The camshafts are removed from the equation and replaced by electric solenoids. This frees up a sizable amount of hp and allows for complete variable control of the valve timing by the ECU and gets rid of the timing belt in the process. This in turn yields more torque throughout the rev range and increases fuel economy. I saw it once years ago in a magazine. A guy had designed it himself and had a working version on his custom built engine. Seems like combining this technology with direct injection we could really improve on the combustion engine.
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Re: Camless Valvetrains
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- quasi-mod-o
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Re: Camless Valvetrains
What MConte said. It's still prohibitively expensive for a consumer application at this point.
Someone who follows Formula 1 closer than I do can say this for sure, but I believe all F1 engines now have electrically-actuated valves, primarily because of valve float. I think they got to a point where the engines were spinning so fast that no valve spring could close the valve fast enough.
But I don't think we're far off, honestly. As I was talking about here, Nissan and BMW are already using VVT that's so variable that you're controlling valve timing with your right foot. Throttle bodies are rendered unnecessary, except as a safety measure should the VVT system fail.
Someone who follows Formula 1 closer than I do can say this for sure, but I believe all F1 engines now have electrically-actuated valves, primarily because of valve float. I think they got to a point where the engines were spinning so fast that no valve spring could close the valve fast enough.
But I don't think we're far off, honestly. As I was talking about here, Nissan and BMW are already using VVT that's so variable that you're controlling valve timing with your right foot. Throttle bodies are rendered unnecessary, except as a safety measure should the VVT system fail.
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Re: Camless Valvetrains
Pretty cool technology for sure. I forgot about the throttle body bit.
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"Your testes are close to your bottom but you still play with them all the time." Jeremy Clarkson
91 SS EJ20G Engine/Tranny/Diff Swap Build Thread Here
"Your testes are close to your bottom but you still play with them all the time." Jeremy Clarkson
Re: Camless Valvetrains
F1 still uses camshafts, but instead of a metal spring they use pneumatic cylinders.
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- quasi-mod-o
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Camless Valvetrains
Good to know.
But I wonder why they don't use desmodromic valves. I would think that would be less complex and/or more reliable.
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But I wonder why they don't use desmodromic valves. I would think that would be less complex and/or more reliable.
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2000 Subaru Legacy B4 RSK
"Der Wahnsinn ist nur eine schmale Brücke/die Ufer sind Vernunft und Trieb"
*Formerly DerFahrer*
@entirelyturbo on social media, including Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok
"Der Wahnsinn ist nur eine schmale Brücke/die Ufer sind Vernunft und Trieb"
*Formerly DerFahrer*
@entirelyturbo on social media, including Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok
Re: Camless Valvetrains
It seems to me like a pneumatic cylinder is probably less complex than the desmodromic valves. The desmodromic valves just sound like a huge nightmare.
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Re: Camless Valvetrains
The pneumatic system is pretty simple and probably weighs less too:
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- quasi-mod-o
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Re: Camless Valvetrains
Yeah, and there's also more load on the camshafts with the desmodromic valves too, come to think of it, since they have the responsibility of both opening and closing the valves. That's not an issue with the pneumatic valves.
Nonetheless, Ducati has been racing quite successfully with desmodromic valves, according to that Wikipedia article.
Nonetheless, Ducati has been racing quite successfully with desmodromic valves, according to that Wikipedia article.
2000 Subaru Legacy B4 RSK
"Der Wahnsinn ist nur eine schmale Brücke/die Ufer sind Vernunft und Trieb"
*Formerly DerFahrer*
@entirelyturbo on social media, including Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok
"Der Wahnsinn ist nur eine schmale Brücke/die Ufer sind Vernunft und Trieb"
*Formerly DerFahrer*
@entirelyturbo on social media, including Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok
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- Fifth Gear
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Re: Camless Valvetrains
The Ducati deso's require frequent valve adjustments. Like every 15k, or something.
Jamal, what you pictured is a hyd valve spring but still relies on the mechanical cam to open the valve.
Jamal, what you pictured is a hyd valve spring but still relies on the mechanical cam to open the valve.
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Re: Camless Valvetrains
Um, did you read my post or the caption in that diagram?
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- Fifth Gear
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Re: Camless Valvetrains
Did I miss something? I thought we were discussing electric/hydraulic actuated valves.jamal wrote:Um, did you read my post or the caption in that diagram?
93 legacy wagon L, 22T swapped (TW imitator) now with five forward speeds. (Gone, but never forgotten)
johndrivesabox wrote: Rally, my kyboard is brok, his has nohing o do wih h liquor.
Originalcyn wrote:Apparently everyone hates Gabe.
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Re: Camless Valvetrains
Here's a great example of this technology in action. Koenigsegg has been working on it and seems to have it pretty figured out. Capable of 20,000 RPM! I like the way this guy explains it. He says to picture an artist trying to play a piano with a broomstick across all the keys and now with camless technology is he can now play nearly limitless variants of music.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bch5B23 ... e=youtu.be
With this technology and direct injection I'm sure you could easily run a 600cc 2 cylinder engine in my metro and get 70 mpg making 60+ hp.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bch5B23 ... e=youtu.be
With this technology and direct injection I'm sure you could easily run a 600cc 2 cylinder engine in my metro and get 70 mpg making 60+ hp.
98 Metro Hatch Daily Driver :)
91 SS EJ20G Engine/Tranny/Diff Swap Build Thread Here
"Your testes are close to your bottom but you still play with them all the time." Jeremy Clarkson
91 SS EJ20G Engine/Tranny/Diff Swap Build Thread Here
"Your testes are close to your bottom but you still play with them all the time." Jeremy Clarkson
Re: Camless Valvetrains
That Free valve technology is amazing!!
Josh
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surrealmirage.com/subaru
1990 Legacy (AWD, 6MT, & EJ22T Swap)
2020 Outback Limted XT
If you need to get a hold of me please email me rather then pm
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Re: Camless Valvetrains
I just saw that and was gonna post it here. Its awesome to see a working example. And the added benefits that come with it! Like storing compressed air on board and using it to boost intake pressure. This is definitely the future of the internal combustion engine.
93 legacy wagon L, 22T swapped (TW imitator) now with five forward speeds. (Gone, but never forgotten)
johndrivesabox wrote: Rally, my kyboard is brok, his has nohing o do wih h liquor.
Originalcyn wrote:Apparently everyone hates Gabe.
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Re: Camless Valvetrains
It seems as though if a smaller manufacturer can pull this off why hasn't toyota or ford or gm done it? They've put 60,000 km on that retrofitted head with no problems. Increased torque/hp/mpg and a lighter smaller engine seems like a no brainer. Especially when this system can function at 20,000 rpm.
98 Metro Hatch Daily Driver :)
91 SS EJ20G Engine/Tranny/Diff Swap Build Thread Here
"Your testes are close to your bottom but you still play with them all the time." Jeremy Clarkson
91 SS EJ20G Engine/Tranny/Diff Swap Build Thread Here
"Your testes are close to your bottom but you still play with them all the time." Jeremy Clarkson