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 Post subject: Different Injectors, Does it Really Matter?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:59 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:55 am
Posts: 6
Location: Olympia, WA
Hello all, this is my first real post! Just got my first legacy after totalling my Loyale T-Wagon. But now I am a proud 1990 Legacy LS Wagon w/4EAT (and soon paddle shifters :D) owner!

So anyways, back to the topic here…

I recently had injector number 4 go out on me, and right now money is tight. So I went to the local Pick a Part that I happen to have credit at, and I looked through their legacy's and found one with 3 good injectors on it, and 2 good ones in the drivers side rail, which was just what I needed. So I pulled them, not knowing or thinking about what type of trans that was in the car. So I get home with my newly pulled injectors, and set to take apart my car and fix it up. So I removed the fuel rail to find that the injectors that I am removing have nipples and the ones that I was going to put into my car don't! :shock: WTF! So after making a few calls, I just said F'it, they are going in, what the worst that can happen, it's already only running on 3 cylinders! So I threw them in rail and all, and then fired him up! And guess what, purred like a kitten :D

So after making those phone calls I mentioned earlier, I found out that I had pulled injectors off of a manual car, and that I "needed" to get automatic injectors, and all my research pointed to everyone saying "NO DON'T DO THAT", but never really having a reason why, since nobody had done it. Or if they had swapped the auto injectors for manual ones, they didn't post back about it.

BUT my car runs fine right now, so what's the big deal and why was everyone saying not to use the manual injectors with an automatic car??

Here are some pics of my injectors, both the ones that I installed in my car from the manual car at the junk yard, and the ones I pulled from my car that have the nipples on them:

Here is the passenger side fuel "rail", this is the actual one I pulled:

Image

Image

Image

And here are the ones that I pulled from the drivers side of my car:

Image

Here is a shot of the "manual" injectors installed on my drivers side:

Image

And here is the passenger side, keep in mind I did not touch this side at all:

Image

All I did to install the injectors is remove 6 bolts, pop out the old injectors, pop in the new injectors, and then re-insert the 6 bolts. That's it.

Here is my entire thread on USMB that I made for reference:

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/sho ... post972340

And now to quote myself with all my research from the thread I link to above:

eulogious wrote:
After spending some hours reading up on injectors, I think I might have a clue as to the differences in the injectors. Not really why subaru used 2 different types (I do have some ideas), but at least the main differences between the 2.

I came across this site that showed the different type of injectors, but didn't really lead me to anything conclusive:

http://www.sdsefi.com/injectors.htm

Then I found this...

To qoute http://importnut.net/ignitionfuel.htm :

Automotiveforums.com wrote:
Fuel Injectors
There are two common types of fuel injectors, pintle and disc (Lucas style). Pintle injectors have a superior spray pattern to disc actuated injectors, but disc injectors are less expensive and generally flow large amounts of fuel easily. If possible, always choose high flow pintle style injectors, as fuel atomization at anything other than full throttle (high velocity port flow) is superior, leading to better drivability and economy. Below is a picture illustrating what I mean about the spray patterns…

Image


I highlighted the important part...

So that at least told me about the different type of injectors, pintle (auto) and lucas (manual). Now I was getting somewhere.

After some more searching I found this:

From http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t=703652 :

Mark Adams wrote:
Over the years I have done a great deal of research into this matter, in the form of reading and experimentation. I am also privileged to have access to very thorough research on this subject done by major motor manufacturers and component suppliers (e.g. Bosch, Land Rover, etc). Although I cannot pass it on directly, I can at least give you the distilled essence.

The standard RV8 pump is indeed rated at 3.0 Bar, although it is only operated at 2.5 Bar so there is a useful margin available. There are a number of effects of increasing the fuel pressure which must be considered, and the results for the pump and injectors are quite different.

Firstly, increasing the fuel pressure will obviously put more strain on the pump. The flow of fuel through the pump provides it's cooling, and flow drops generally in a non-linear manner with increasing pressure (usually logarithmic).

In general, increasing pressure will improve the atomisation of the injectors for pintle and type II/III designs but not for the Lucas disc type. All fuel injectors are for a specific operating pressure, or pressure range. The effects of increasing the pressure are heavily dependant on the design.

For the Lucas disc design, increasing pressure will increase the flow up to a point. The injector has an upper and lower disc. The lower disc has a hole in the centre (the metering orifice), and the upper disc is lifted by the electro-magnetic solenoid to allow fuel to flow.

It is quite obvious that the higher the pressure, the harder it is to lift the upper disc to allow fuel to flow. This results in a much longer and more unstable opening time for the injector. After 3.3 Bar the fuel flow will actually start to decrease and become more unstable as the electro-magnet struggles to overcome the force of the fuel pressure closing it.

This also requires that the battery voltage compensations in the ECU are adjusted accordingly, since they are dependant on operating pressure.

Additionally the Lucas injector does not produce an atomised spray through the metering orifice. This function is provided by the plastic diffuser underneath, which is supposed to break up the jet into droplets. Quite often there is no atomisation at all.

To show you what really happens I have a couple of pictures for you. Here is a picture of Bosch (left) and Lucas spray patterns side-by-side in the injector cleaning machine at TVR Power:

Image

Now here's another shot done with a faster exposure, using the machine at Shropshire Auto Service. You can clearly see the large droplets in the stream from both the Lucas injectors on the left.

Image

In the simplest terms, fuel droplets burn from the outside in. It follows that the smaller they are the quicker they burn, hence releasing more of the energy contained in the fuel. Ultimately this gives the most efficient use of the fuel, and the cleanest exhaust emissions. There is a minimum size for fuel droplets, but it is not seen outside of Formula One where no engineering effort is spared.

Ever more stringent emissions legislation has driven advances in fuel injector design. Improvements in manufacturing technology have produced some far more effective fuel injectors, with the aim of producing more efficient combustion. Some of the best designs are the Bosch Type II and Type III versions.

Fuel enters the combustion process by two methods for this type of manifold injection system. Firstly there is fuel which is pulled from the manifold walls by the air stream entering the combustion chamber when the inlet valve is open. This fuel is deposited on the manifold walls by the injectors when air is not flowing in the inlet tract. During this time the fuel deposited will evaporate in a warm engine, so the smaller the droplets are the better and faster they evaporate. Some fuel droplets remain in suspension in the air in the inlet tract, and again the smaller they are the better.

During recent testing on standard TVR 5.0 Litre engines, the injectors picked up 8 lb/ft of torque everywhere over a hand picked flow-matched set of brand new Lucas originals. This has been accurately and scientifically tested dozens of times, and is always the case.

Interestingly the improved torque required 2-3 Degrees less ignition advance, denoting improved combustion speed and efficiency. If you simply put in an injector with better atomisation, you will indeed see a drop in power because the ignition timing is now too far advanced for the reasons given above.

When mapping a car and selecting injector sizes, the injectors should run no more than an 80% duty cycle at any point in the map. Obviously the time available for injection decreases with rising RPM. This limit is necessary in order to allow for transient fuelling (sudden throttle opening), and proper response when the engine is cold amongst other factors.

Whilst it is true that the standard Lucas injectors can be operated on motors producing 350BHP, it takes them to 100% opening at pressures well outside the operating envelope. I have asked this before and have never been given an answer - can anyone please tell me what the duty cycle was THEY MEASURED on one of these 350BHP cars? I think not.

A slight protrusion into the inlet air stream is permissible and can help mixture whilst air is flowing in the inlet tract, although injection during this time is undesirable since it can produce a non-homogeneous mixture. However the depth of protrusion can be adjusted, since the legs of the fuel rail are rather bendy!


I highlighted the important part again...

Then I came across this tidbit from nabisco http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96571 :

The Old One wrote:
Keeping the mixture atomized in the cylinder is one thing, but conditioning the mixture prior to delivery is another story. Our experience has been that as the velocity of the air traveling through the port increases, the spray pattern should become more confined.
Fan-type spray patterns (pintle) are best suited for low rpm operation, therefore giving excellent mileage and emissions, but the fan pattern can get lost in a hurry as port velocity increases.
While I'm not all that keen on the laser-beam style pattern provided by the Lucas (RCE style) injectors for low speed applications, they do work pretty well with these high rpm engines, as their stream penetrates and mixes with the high velocity flow with ease.

--
.....The Old One....


I highlighted the important info here one last time...

So putting this all together, this is what I came up with regarding the differences in the injectors, and why subaru might have used the two different types, instead of just sticking with one type. So feel free to correct me if I am wrong on this :) Here it goes...

So with the pintle type of injector (auto), you get a good spray pattern going into the cylinder at all times, and this is important in the lower RPM range for better fuel economy and what not. This is important on automatic's because the car spends most of it's time in the lower RPM range under normal driving. I know in my car I barely go over 4000 RPM on my way to work, so having a good spray pattern makes sense in an automatic car, since it's normal RPM range is lower than that of the manual cars because the computer keeps it that way. So in order to make up for some of the loss in MPG, Subaru must have used the pintle injectors to try to offset the MPG loss that comes naturally with the design of the auto. I should also note that the pintle type of injector is more costly to make as well when compared to the lucas disc type of injector. So due to the pintle injectors being more money and not as efficient in the upper RPM range, they only put them into the auto's.

Now the lucas injectors (manual) apparently perform better in the higher RPM range, which is great for a manual car since it will spend more time above 4000 RPM than an auto would, so it would make sense to use the injector that works better with more airflow (higher RPM), hence why that type of injector was only used on the manual cars.

This is my theory anyways, so please correct me if my logic/thought process is off :)

Another thing I noted was that both type of injectors flow the same, and that changes with the turbo models of course, but other than that, both type of injectors do flow the same.

So at the end of the day, it looks like the only difference between the two injectors has nothing to do with the computer used or different sensors that are used, but has more to do with cost and MPG, go figure :roll:

One thing that I will keep track of is my gas mileage to see if it changes at all. Of course since my trans is refusing to lockup the torque converter, I don't get very good gas mileage as it is, but I will keep an eye out and see if it changes any.

It's good to know that there really isn't a difference in the injectors, just the implantation of the injectors themselves, that is unless my mileage changes drastically, then I will look more into, but until then it doesn't look like there is much of a difference between the two. It's also good to know that the ECU can compensate for either type of injectors as well :) No need to replace anything besides the injectors themselves :)


I just thought that it was good info and wanted to share with the people here, as well as get your guys input as well.

Am I on the right track with the injectors? Any input would be great!

I just really want to know what's up with the different injectors once and for all :)

Thanks all!


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 Post subject: Re: Different Injectors, Does it Really Matter?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:02 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:37 am
Posts: 25645
Location: Houston, Tx
The injectors are paired to the ECU. The 90-91 non-turbo legacies had two different ECU types, Hitachi & JECS. MT's had the Hitachi ECU and AT's had the JECS ECU. As long as you're using a 90-91 non-turbo injectors, I don't see any major issues in swapping them. They are supposed to have the same flow rate.

The only issue I see is the spray patterns could be different so you may get some differences in fuel atomization & mixing in the cylinder. Is it a big deal, probably not.

In 92, all the non-turbo legacies went to the JECS ecu for both MT & AT, and have different injectors (red tops) from the 90-91 non-turbo legacies. I swapped these into my 90 legacy and ran them on the 90 legacy ECU. From my experience the car seemed to run a little on the rich side (too rich) with the 90 ECU. Power was a little less, fuel mileage wasn't as good, and the car just wasn't as "snappy". I then switched to a 92 JECS ECU, and the power was better, fuel mileage was better, etc. That leads me to believe the 92-94 non-turbo injectors may flow a little more than the 90-91 non-turbo injectors.

So that's a little more info about injectors

_________________
Josh

surrealmirage.com/subaru
1990 Legacy (AWD, 6MT, & EJ22T Swap)
1997 Impreza OBS

If you need to get a hold of me please email me rather then pm


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 Post subject: Re: Different Injectors, Does it Really Matter?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:17 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:55 am
Posts: 6
Location: Olympia, WA
Awesome man, you just answered one of my other questions that I had in the back of my mind about that.

In the thread I have going on USMB, it was mentioned to swap out the injectors like you did and use the redtop injectors, but no mention of the ECU needing to be swapped, or of any problems with it running any different. That's good to know that you tried this and what happened with you. Thanks for that! So when I am looking for the redtop injectors and rails in the junk yard, I should just grab the ECU as well, good to know. Again, thanks for sharing your experience!

Does the ECU just plug right up, no modification? I would guess so, but I don't really like to assume :) Seems like it would though...


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 Post subject: Re: Different Injectors, Does it Really Matter?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 4:03 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:37 am
Posts: 25645
Location: Houston, Tx
The 92-94 JECS ecu is plug & play. The only thing I did have to do is alter the MT/AT identifier pin. For some reason on the newer JECS ecu's that pin on the ECU is wired backwards from how the 90-91 ECU's were wired and how the factory manuals indicate.

I'm not sure if this was unique to my 92 JECS ecu or if it is common to all the 92-94 JECS ecus. Here's a little more info from my swap page.

http://www.surrealmirage.com/subaru/swa ... l.html#ecu

_________________
Josh

surrealmirage.com/subaru
1990 Legacy (AWD, 6MT, & EJ22T Swap)
1997 Impreza OBS

If you need to get a hold of me please email me rather then pm


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 Post subject: Re: Different Injectors, Does it Really Matter?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:47 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:55 am
Posts: 6
Location: Olympia, WA
Awesome, thanks man! Thanks for the link as well! Next injector that fails me I am going to just swap them all out for redtops and be done with it, so thanks for that!

I am glad that I now know that I am not going to be messing up my car by running the different injectors, and I am glad I found out about using the redtop injectors as well. The more you know!


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 Post subject: Re: Different Injectors, Does it Really Matter?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:08 pm 
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Location: Houston, Tx
You're welcome. Glad I could help.

_________________
Josh

surrealmirage.com/subaru
1990 Legacy (AWD, 6MT, & EJ22T Swap)
1997 Impreza OBS

If you need to get a hold of me please email me rather then pm


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