Starting Problem

Heads, valves, pistons, rods, crankshaft, etc...

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Jessekrs123
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by Jessekrs123 »

Mattheww044 wrote:sorry I don't really have time to read all of the posts, but hace you checked/replaced your starter solenoid contacts? Had an issue with that awhile back and it was back to normal once those were replaced.
Starter has less than 2,000 miles on it.
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Jessekrs123
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by Jessekrs123 »

Mattheww044 wrote:sorry I don't really have time to read all of the posts, but hace you checked/replaced your starter solenoid contacts? Had an issue with that awhile back and it was back to normal once those were replaced.
Everything checks out fine, you can eat off my engine bay, no worn contacts or anything.

I just got my lock cylinder full assembly from Subaru today and tested it out. It tests out way better than the one in my car as of right now. I am getting instant continuity at the appropriate terminals. With the one in the car, I actually watched my multi meter count down from like 35 ohms until it finally hit .01 and started to beep. And how I would get intermittent continuity to some of the needed terminals.

I will be removing my old lock cylinder tomorrow and putting in this fresh new one.

I was talking to the parts guy at the dealer about the shear head bolts that hold these things in, and he said it is for anti-theft purposes. To me, it's just another headache.

He also told me that if this is the fix, than he has a half dozen people that will be needing the same work done because they are all experiencing the same problem with flawless ignition components. I guess that the ignition switch is frequently looked over. It seems like it could fail. These are some high resistance wires going into the whole thing held on by big blobs of solder. Perhaps the solders are going cold. Who knows but if this does the trick, I will need at least a week to confirm it. I usually see no problems for 3-4 days and then out of nowhere it will start acting up.

I have my fingers crossed.
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Mattheww044
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by Mattheww044 »

best of luck, and definately let us know how it goes
Jessekrs123
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by Jessekrs123 »

Ok, I got everything apart, but now I'm having some trouble. I cannot get the lock to stay in the new cylinder. The lock keeps coming out, it won't stay in. I can just pull it out when it is in any position. This is becoming really frustrating, if anybody has a clue, please let me know. Thanks.
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Legacy777
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by Legacy777 »

What did you do to remove the lock from the old cylinder? Was there a clip or something that held it in place?

Hopefully someone else that has done this can chime in. Any chance of taking a few pictures to post up?
Josh

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Jessekrs123
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by Jessekrs123 »

Went to the Subaru place. Tech told me that the cylinder and the tumbler should never be separated. My dad chiseled out the old bolts and in the process he managed to knock out the tumbler from the cylinder along with various ball bearings and springs. :x Everytime he touches my car he breaks something...

So now I ordered a new cylinder and it will be coming with the tumbler and a new key. So now I have 1 key for door locks and 1 key for ignition. :|

Until I get my new cylinder I will simply be using a screwdriver to turn the ignition.

I have pics here of the old ignition switch and how badly burnt out it is, which explains my weird readings and my no starts.
Image

I will be putting everything back together and fire it up and see what happens. Hopefully this does the trick.
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by Legacy777 »

You should be able to take the lock cylinder to a lock smith and have it rekeyed. I did this when I had to replace my driver's door lock cylinder.

That ignition switch looks pretty bad.
Josh

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Jessekrs123
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by Jessekrs123 »

Legacy777 wrote:You should be able to take the lock cylinder to a lock smith and have it rekeyed. I did this when I had to replace my driver's door lock cylinder.

That ignition switch looks pretty bad.
I just put everything together and started it up with my flathead!!!! Haha I feel so redneck right now :P .

I'm going to drive it around, make sure everything is good. Once I get my new cylinder everything will be back together and good to go.

So happy right now, it was a true cold start too so I hope this does it!!! :D
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by Legacy777 »

Glad to hear it started up! Based on your diagnosis, that sounded like it was the problem.
Josh

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cul8tr
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by cul8tr »

I'm having the same problem. I have replaced the Temp sensor with no luck. Some times it stumbles to crank or when I let off the switch it tries to start. Some times when it seems to fire if I hold the gas pedal to the floor it will crank, sometimes but not today. I wonder if the ignition switch is bad. Faulty contact points. It is right hand drive, I'm a letter carrier. Any help would be great. Thanks
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by Jessekrs123 »

Well guys I'm back with bad news.

Car started up fine for me this morning in the 20 degree weather, buried under 2 feet of snow. But, when I got out of work at 7, it would just keep cranking. The new ignition switch did not work. I don't know where to go from here, everything checks out fine. Everything is grounded. All ECU circuits are closed.

There has to be something faulty within the starting system. I can pop-start it when it does not start.

Some guidance and ideas would be nice, give me anything to work with.
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by Legacy777 »

cul8tr wrote:I'm having the same problem. I have replaced the Temp sensor with no luck. Some times it stumbles to crank or when I let off the switch it tries to start. Some times when it seems to fire if I hold the gas pedal to the floor it will crank, sometimes but not today. I wonder if the ignition switch is bad. Faulty contact points. It is right hand drive, I'm a letter carrier. Any help would be great. Thanks
Welcome to the BBS.

Just out of curiosity, have you checked to see if any codes are stored in the ECU? If not, it wouldn't hurt to just verify. Assuming there's no codes, it could an ignition swith or possibly the ignition relay, or something else. Unfortunately, it will require some troubleshooting to try and narrow down the problem. Are you handy with a multimeter and wiring diagrams?
Josh

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Legacy777
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by Legacy777 »

Jessekrs123 wrote:Well guys I'm back with bad news.

Car started up fine for me this morning in the 20 degree weather, buried under 2 feet of snow. But, when I got out of work at 7, it would just keep cranking. The new ignition switch did not work. I don't know where to go from here, everything checks out fine. Everything is grounded. All ECU circuits are closed.

There has to be something faulty within the starting system. I can pop-start it when it does not start.

Some guidance and ideas would be nice, give me anything to work with.
Well...that stinks.

What I'd suggest is go back to the basics. The diagram below is the basics of the starting system.

http://www.surrealmirage.com/subaru/fil ... arting.jpg

We know the engine cranks, so we can ignore the right side of the diagram. What I would suggest starting with is all the exterior connection points to the starting system, MB-3, GB3, GB5, & GE. You may have a weak ground, which may be causing some issues. Lastly, I don't recall if you've already tried this, but if you have a spare ECU, try a different ECU.

Another thing to check is verifying you have 12v at the starter switch pin on the ECU, B56.10

I wish I had a smoking gun for you, but all the indications and tests indicated the ignition switch. It's possible, there could have been multiple issues.
Josh

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Jessekrs123
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by Jessekrs123 »

Thanks Josh, I'll test everything when I get a chance.
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cul8tr
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by cul8tr »

Sorry to hear the new switch didn't cure the problem,I was hoping.

I talked to the tech at my local Subaru dealership. He worked with a service tech who experienced something like this. He said that when the key turns it wakes up 2 systems; the computer and oh no I forgot the 2nd. He said that one side was not coming on or powering up.

I think I might drop it off for him to check, if I can get it to crank.

This morning 25* it spun and stumbled with the gas pedal to the floor and started. Went out after I finished my route and it just spun didn't even try to fire or hit.

How much pressure does the fuel pump need to push? Ive heard 20-40 lbs. pressure.

I forgot my check engine light stays on with no codes.
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by Legacy777 »

cul8tr, I'd be curious what your mechanic said was the "other" thing that needs to kick on.

Normal fuel pressure is around 43 psi.
Josh

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cul8tr
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by cul8tr »

Well it cranked and I dropped it off at the dealership for them to look at.

I'll call him on Monday and ask him what the other thing was. I'm just getting old and forgetting.

It comes with the job. You have to forget what you did the day before. Remembering everything for 600 families would drive you crazy. LOL!!

I contacted Subaru of America. They sent me this web address; http://techinfo.subaru.com./index.html
I couldn't get the site to come up.
subydaddy
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by subydaddy »

Have any luck figuring this out yet?
cul8tr
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by cul8tr »

I called on Friday and he hasn't found out anything yet. He hasn't worked on it the whole time just in between other repairs. I have 2 rhd for my route and it's not pressing that it get done quickly.

I forgot to ask him what the other item was that has to power on when the switch is turned on.

As far as carbon build on the valves and the bypass valve.
I have had really good luck using Chevron Tektron (I think that's how it's spelled) fuel injection cleaner. I pour 2 20.oz bottles in at a time.
Lucas Upper Cylinder Lubricant 32 0z bottle. I use a 1/3 to a 1/2 a bottle at a time.

Both products depending upon how much I use and how much carbon is built up. Take care of the carbon in about a week.
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by Jessekrs123 »

It hasn't given me the problem lately, even in this -20* weather, so I have not been able to test anything. I am really stumped by this whole ordeal...

It can't be the injectors, it is just lacking spark, the injectors are all firing, and without spark it begins to flood the cylinders so when it does finally start up, it idles like crap for a minute then evens out.
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subydaddy
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by subydaddy »

I have searched for hours on this problem and I don't know how I ever missed this thread

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.p ... fa4e1fafb7&
[Platinum_Racing]This is a trouble spot with this engine. The cause is silicone build up on the coil pack terminals for the spark plug wires. You must remove the spark plug wires from the coil pack, and use a wire brush, a piece of Scotch-Brite, or even WD-40 and a rag to clean the inside of the terminals. Once they are clean, use a flathead screwdriver to spread open the metal connections on the spark plug wires a little bit to promote a better, tighter connection when you plug them back in. I also use zip ties on each spark plug wire to secure them to the poorly designed coil pack (Which has a slightly tapered terminal that lets the rubber boots on the wires slide right off).



Good luck! I had this problem too last winter and cleaning the coil did wonders. This winter it starts every morning bright and early with no issues.

I have already ordered a MSD coil with matching plug wires in hopes to get a little bit better gas mileage (for both legacy's) I will let you guys know if the problem still exists after the swap.
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Jessekrs123
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by Jessekrs123 »

subydaddy wrote:I have searched for hours on this problem and I don't know how I ever missed this thread

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.p ... fa4e1fafb7&
[Platinum_Racing]This is a trouble spot with this engine. The cause is silicone build up on the coil pack terminals for the spark plug wires. You must remove the spark plug wires from the coil pack, and use a wire brush, a piece of Scotch-Brite, or even WD-40 and a rag to clean the inside of the terminals. Once they are clean, use a flathead screwdriver to spread open the metal connections on the spark plug wires a little bit to promote a better, tighter connection when you plug them back in. I also use zip ties on each spark plug wire to secure them to the poorly designed coil pack (Which has a slightly tapered terminal that lets the rubber boots on the wires slide right off).



Good luck! I had this problem too last winter and cleaning the coil did wonders. This winter it starts every morning bright and early with no issues.

I have already ordered a MSD coil with matching plug wires in hopes to get a little bit better gas mileage (for both legacy's) I will let you guys know if the problem still exists after the swap.
I need to try this. I have 2 coil packs sitting around, and I tried the both of them and still had the same problem, but I never attempted to clean out the coil ports. I will also be trying this with both of my coil packs and see what happens.

I searched for this problem and did not find that thread. Thanks a bunch subydaddy.
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cul8tr
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by cul8tr »

Hey guys, I just got my subby from the dealership. The tech said when he would try to crank it everything checked and all readings were correct.
I had Bocsh Platnium +4 spark plugs. He changed them out with NGK plugs. He had told me before to only use NGK plugs.
The car is starting now every time. I'll let you guys know if it does or doesn't in the morning.

He explained that the resistance of the plugs drops when it's really cold out. He put them in a freezer and checked their resistance. NGK verses Champion; the Champion's resistance was almost gone, while the NGK was still good.
I didn't or haven't checked the coil and plug wires as described earlier but will do that next if I still have the problem.

So I'll let you guys know tomorrow about the morning crank along with the temperature outside.
I know this may not be the same fix for everybody but every bit of info is helpful to curing and eliminating the problem.
Thanks
cul8tr
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by cul8tr »

29* this morning and it has started all day without any problems. It will be about a week before we have any more real cold weather. If I have any more problems in the colder weather I will post.

When it is cold the Bosch plugs acted like they were fouled. In warm temps the plugs acted just fine.

We still can't figure out why the check engine light stays on.

I hope this helps. Thanks
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by Legacy777 »

Another good example of why to run NGK plugs :)
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