EJ22T rebuild... want forged internals... advice?

[free5ty1e]

OK, so I've decided to make it official; my 1991 Subaru Legacy SS, which is in need of engine work anyway, will be built back up with forged internals in preparation for a large turbo and standalone engine management (although a RobTune may be in the intermediate mix along the way, depending on how far I can push that setup).

The situation is thus: this '91 SS ran great when I purchased it and drove it from Ogden, UT back to Elko, NV in or around 2008.... where it sat for a long time, rarely used. At one point, a family member who had access to the keys decided that he needed to borrow this car for some errands or something, and took it without asking (or checking fluids, this was the killer!)

The car apparently was overheated quite severely, I can only guess it had a coolant leak and had emptied itself as it sat for months before it was driven. When I tried to start the car next, after this incident that I was unaware of (my only indication that the car had moved is that it was parked in a different orientation / position), it felt like the engine was freewheeling and I assumed the timing belt had broken or something. When I finally towed it in to have the timing belt replaced, the mechanic informed me it had 0 compression on 3 of the 4 cylinders (one cylinder was at 122psi, rest at 0) and the timing belt was in decent shape. He then proceeded to tell me that my only option was a new engine. At this point, I told him to cease all work and paid him for the diagnostics up to that point and got the car the hell away from his shop. Replace an entire closed-deck engine to fix what is probably just some rings and a headgasket? Yeah, I don't trust you anymore with my EJ22T.

So, I finally had this car delivered to Oregon to Accelerated Automotive and the owner is really interested to build up this EJ22T with me. I told him I would look into the best options for forged internals on this forum, as the collective experience on Legacy Central is ridiculously awesome. Right off the bat, he suggested Wiseco pistons and Eagle rods as they are available for my engine, and I'd seen many members post about using this combination with good results. However, I'm a bit unsure as to exactly how to spec out what I want -- I've got zero bottom-end experience.

I've done some searching on the board and found many members running forged internals, but what I couldn't figure out was how they specified what they wanted or even how they arrived at those conclusions. I am, for all intents and purposes, an engine n00b and need some education.

I suppose my first question is, what internals should I be looking at replacing while the block is apart? Wiseco pistons and Eagle rods, sure, but that's about the extent of what I've learned so far. I've seen some posts mentioning ARP Head Studs and ACL Bearings, are these worth getting? (and why?)

I understand our stock 2.2 crank is already forged and should be fine for usage with other forged internals and high HP setups -- is this accurate?

Now, what about displacement? I am assuming that if I leave the bore and stroke alone, I will have the highest reliability factor. Is this the case? Is the EJ22T worth boring and/or stroking at all when building up with forged internals for big power (450 - 500 HP range? Higher? I realize my puny 5MT will not hold up to these power levels, and will source a 6MT when the time is right).

Am I correct in assuming I have no special specifications to give to Wiseco and Eagle if I leave the bore and stroke alone? As in, I can just order a set of pistons and rods designed for the EJ22T with no other parameters provided? Or are there reasons to specify slightly larger or different shaped pistons and/or rods? Are there different rod designs I need to look into or just stick with the stock shape?

Pistons, well, I know if the surface of the piston changes shape then the compression ratio will be affected somewhat. I'm a bit torn on my target compression ratio; should I stick with the stock compression ratio, drop it, raise it...? The 600 HP STi my mechanic has is running 25lbs of boost @ 9:1 CR!! I had always expected a big turbo to be matched with a lowered CR like 7.5:1 or 7:1.... is this just for safety with a bad tune or what?

What about rings? Any special brand, just get Subaru OEM? Have Total Seal rings been correctly manufactured for the EJ22T yet, and are they worth looking into? What is important to selection of a piston ring?

I also would like to maintain the SOHC stock heads, albeit ported / polished / valve job'd, as well as the "non-interference" characteristic of this engine. I want this car to, in the end, be streetable and as reliable as possible. I'll get groceries with this thing, and drive it to work, because I like my errands and commutes to be as enjoyable as possible!

I don't see the need for the added complexity of a DOHC swap, what with all the difficulties involved and in the end I still have 4 valves per cylinder... I plan to, as in this legendary thread, simply replace the valve springs with titanium springs in my SOHC heads to prevent valve float at higher RPMs.

For the turbo.... .well, my VF36 twin-scroll ball-bearing turbo is indeed destined for my '94 SS. That turbo is good for up to about 400 HP and that's about where I'll be happy with my '94, so I need to choose another turbo for the '91 build with more power capability. Since this will be a largely custom job anyway, I suppose all bets are off; I don't need it to match the stock turbine flange, although it would be nice if it did. Selection of a turbo is not for this topic, though, and as such I'll start a new thread in the Turbo category with a link to this thread for reference. EDIT: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=52206 <--- here is the turbo thread for this build

More immediate is figuring out exactly how I want to handle this engine rebuild, so I can get parts ordered and get the process started.

Please, discuss -- any suggestions or criticism welcome. I value the board's consensus above all else when planning this build, you guys have never steered me wrong and I always learn a lot from the process. I openly admit I have zero experience with engine internals, although I do know how it basically works. A little knowledge is dangerous, though, so I'd rather be fully educated before continuing along this path.


Thanks!

[Legacy777]

The eagle rods & wiseco pistons are a normal build path and should be alright for your build. The off the shelf Wiseco pistons for the ej22t will bump the CR from the stock 8:1 to 8.5:1. Depending on the condition of your existing cylinder bores, that will determine what oversized piston you will need, .020" or .040". If you wanted custom pistons I believe wiseco can do them. Crawford can also do custom pistons if you wanted. I think the wiseco's would handle the HP range you're looking for, but don't have any direct experience. I believe Dan (93forestpearl) was in that hp range with that bottom end setup.

You will want to have block and heads resurfaced. You should get ARP studs. ACL bearings are good bearings to use. I'm running their "race" bearings, and when I called to ask about them, I got that they were just a little bitter for high performance setups. I didn't really don't recall all the details now. I also got my bearings coated by calico coatings to improve their durability. You can read up on that if you want. Again, depending on the condition of the crank, that will tell you if you need oversized bearings or not.

The heads are really going to be your limiting factor....port and polishing will help, but you may need to also look at getting a cam. The stock cams fall on their face at the higher rpms and really limit power. You can see my dyno plots from when I last got tuned:

http://www.main.experiencetherave.com/s ... yno_plots/

I haven't had the new motor with delta 220 cams tuned yet, so I don't know how the new power curve will look, but from the little experience I have with the new cams and from others, I think it should help quite a bit.

As I mentioned in your other thread, I really think the supporting systems are really going to be what you need to focus on to make that kind of power reliable.

[free5ty1e]

Excellent, thanks Josh! I hadn't realized you had found a better turbo cam for the stock SOHC heads, that's fantastic! How bad is your idle and low-end driveability with it so far? Unacceptable for street use? Marginal? No problems?

Supporting mods is indeed the name of the game; I plan to do this build in stages (or else I won't have a driveable '91 SS for a LOOOOONG time):

Stage 1 would involve little more than rebuilding the engine with forged internals in preparation to support big power -- and getting the engine running again for a gentle break-in and seating of the rings. Initially, I'll probably even just have the little VF-11 on there running stock boost levels and everything else stock, on the forged internals and stock / untouched heads & cams. I'll probably actually just run wastegate boost at that point with the higher CR from the Wiseco pistons to be safe until I get an intercooler set up, at the very least. (I'll check engine bore before selecting piston size, and crank journals before selecting bearing size -- correct?)

Stage 2 would probably involve a front-mount intercooler setup, larger fuel pump (will the 255lph Walbro be sufficient at the intended end power goal here or should I look into something bigger?), EBC set around 11-12 psi, 3" turbo-back exhaust system, snorkus delete, coffee cup intake resonator, k&n filtercharger, Zeitronix wideband o2 with datalogger, boost gauge (duh), EGT gauge, and parallel fuel rails. (EDIT: and NGK V-powers heat range 7 spark plugs, one step colder)

Stage 3 is where it gets tricky and into unknown territory for me -- installing the selected turbo to support big power but probably running wastegate boost at first (to stay within stock ECU's airflow range until full engine management is here)

Stage 4 would be time to swap to a 6MT to support the higher power levels safely. I am thinking I won't even be able to dyno or tune the setup at all until the transmission can transfer the power to the wheels without disintegrating.

Stage 5 would be when I actually bite the bullet and install a full engine management solution, like the Link+, and can actually begin tuning. There is a 4WD dyno near here somewhere, I'll find it.

Stage 6 would probably be when I "fix" the heads -- port / polish / X-angle valve job (3?) / titanium valve springs / better cams. The reason this is currently slated as last is because I am unsure if it would cause issues to change cams until I have full engine management to tune with.



....So there's the "plan" as it currently sits. What do you guys think? (aside from, "this guy is going to spend a shit ton of money when all is said and done")

[Legacy777]

Excellent, thanks Josh! I hadn't realized you had found a better turbo cam for the stock SOHC heads, that's fantastic! How bad is your idle and low-end driveability with it so far? Unacceptable for street use? Marginal? No problems?

Yeah, Delta Cams has the 220 grind which is what I have and is the torque/street cam. The 230 grind is the race cam and is geared more for higher rpm running I believe. My idle is "alright". It's a little lopey, but I'm ok with that. Engine vacuum is around 10-12 in-Hg at idle. With the stock ECU others do experience more pronounced idle issues. Driveability seems fine so far. The motor needs to be tuned for the new cam and higher compression, but will probably not have that done until the fall and it cools off a little.

(I'll check engine bore before selecting piston size, and crank journals before selecting bearing size -- correct?)

Yes, I'd suggest checking clearances before buying/selecting bearings & pistons.

(EDIT: and NGK V-powers heat range 7 spark plugs, one step colder)

Do not go with a colder plug, you don't need it. I was running 20 psi of boost and the stock plugs were ok. You only need to go with a colder plug if you are finding that the electrode is melting or possibly if you are experiencing detonation or even worse pre-ignition. If you are getting detonation I wouldn't immediately jump to the conclusion that the reason is the plugs, but it could be a contributer.


Some general comments.....I think your plan is pretty well laid out. However doing it in stages, I think you'll find that you'll spend more money and more time to do it that way compared to if you can do things at one time. You may still have to do things in stages, but maybe you reduce it down to 3-4 vs 6. I would do things like engine work, cams, head work, valve springs, etc. all in the beginning. You don't want to have to pull the engine or the heads again just to do those....that doesn't make sense. Get the engine internals how you want them in the end. The stock ECU or even Robtune should be able to handle it. You just may have to limit the amount of boost you run....which isn't a huge deal. I'm just running wastegate boost on my setup right now and it's not super fast, but probably has more balls than the stock turbo legacy engine at stock boost pressures.

[Mister Anderson]

I'll add my 2 cents in

I went with Wiseco pistons, Brain Crower rods and a brand new 2011 2.5 STI crank (my crank was trashed). I have Legacy RS EJ20G heads but I am debating on trying to find a set of 20k heads.

The block had to be machined to accept the number 5 thrust bearing. I see that you live in Portland. Bearing Service Co can handle it and they are in Portland. I'm just throwing the STI crank out there as another possible option.

[free5ty1e]

Yeah, Delta Cams has the 220 grind which is what I have and is the torque/street cam. The 230 grind is the race cam and is geared more for higher rpm running I believe. My idle is "alright". It's a little lopey, but I'm ok with that. Engine vacuum is around 10-12 in-Hg at idle. With the stock ECU others do experience more pronounced idle issues. Driveability seems fine so far. The motor needs to be tuned for the new cam and higher compression, but will probably not have that done until the fall and it cools off a little.

My idle is around -18 in-Hg at idle, and pushes past -20 in-Hg when slowing down in-gear. I see that you are also right about at sea level (50-125 ft above sea level @ Houston, am I correct?). Were you seeing numbers like mine before you changed to the Delta 220 cams, and should I expect a raise in idle pressure like yours with the new cams? I suppose that's because the cams are holding the valves open wider and longer, so it's effectively a higher idle...? Or am I way off?



Mister Anderson, thanks for the info -- that is good to know! I've heard I might need to do that if my crank is too far out of spec to use, but I'm hoping to be able to use the stock EJ22T crankshaft. --- So, are you stroking your engine to 2.35L then using that crank?

[Mister Anderson]

Yeah, Delta Cams has the 220 grind which is what I have and is the torque/street cam. The 230 grind is the race cam and is geared more for higher rpm running I believe. My idle is "alright". It's a little lopey, but I'm ok with that. Engine vacuum is around 10-12 in-Hg at idle. With the stock ECU others do experience more pronounced idle issues. Driveability seems fine so far. The motor needs to be tuned for the new cam and higher compression, but will probably not have that done until the fall and it cools off a little.

My idle is around -18 in-Hg at idle, and pushes past -20 in-Hg when slowing down in-gear. I see that you are also right about at sea level (50-125 ft above sea level @ Houston, am I correct?). Were you seeing numbers like mine before you changed to the Delta 220 cams, and should I expect a raise in idle pressure like yours with the new cams? I suppose that's because the cams are holding the valves open wider and longer, so it's effectively a higher idle...? Or am I way off?



Mister Anderson, thanks for the info -- that is good to know! I've heard I might need to do that if my crank is too far out of spec to use, but I'm hoping to be able to use the stock EJ22T crankshaft. --- So, are you stroking your engine to 2.35L then using that crank?

Yes, I went with the 79mm crank (2.5). The 2.0 crank is 75mm just like the EJ22's crank. A brand new STI crank from Subaru is around 300 bucks, so not all that bad. My block is at the machine shop right now, I'll post some pics up when I receive it.

The problem I was running into with the Legacy RS EJ20G heads is that they have a 57cc head chamber volume. This would make the compression in the low 7s. The wiseco pistons are off the shelf hybrid for the EJ22 with DOHC. They are designed to be run with a 79mm crank and a head that has a chamber volume of 46.6cc. To get around this I ordered the set for the EJ22 with a 75mm crank. These pistons are stock height vs. the ones (shorter) for the 79mm crank . If I used the correct pistons for the 79mm crank the compression would be even less. The Brian Crower rods are 5.141 length, vs. EJ25 rods being 5.181 (used on the 2.5 crank). This allowed me to machine the tops of the pistons down which in-turn removes some of the negative dish, upping the compression. The problem with the stock height on the EJ22 pistons is they will hit the head with a 79mm crank. Now this seems like a whole lot work just to get the EJ20G heads to be compatible in terms of compression but I only paid 50 bucks for the set and they are lightly used with no cracks (they look brand new). A set of STI/WRX EJ20G/K heads are expensive and rather hard to find a good set.


Add what Josh said about the 220/230 cams. I had the 230 grind in my SOHC. It really helped with the turbo drop off in the upper RPMs. I drove my uncle's bone stock SS and I could really tell the difference over 5k RPM. The idle was a little lopey, it would die sometimes with the A/C on. I never did adjust the idle speed this could have solved that issue.

[Legacy777]

My idle is around -18 in-Hg at idle, and pushes past -20 in-Hg when slowing down in-gear. I see that you are also right about at sea level (50-125 ft above sea level @ Houston, am I correct?). Were you seeing numbers like mine before you changed to the Delta 220 cams, and should I expect a raise in idle pressure like yours with the new cams? I suppose that's because the cams are holding the valves open wider and longer, so it's effectively a higher idle...? Or am I way off?

Chris,

Yes I am more or less at sea level, and yes I saw idle vacuum at around 19-20 in-Hg. If you go with the Delta 220 cams, your idle vacuum will go down like mine did. Yes this is primarily because the valves are staying open longer.

With the stock ECU, adjusting the idle isn't really easy unless you adjust one of the components outside of how it's normally supposed to be set. The ECU should learn a little bit, but yeah a lopey idle is something to be expected with the cams.