K-Sport Gravel Rally Coilovers

Struts, spring, anti-rollbars, braces and the like.

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TurnNburn
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K-Sport Gravel Rally Coilovers

Post by TurnNburn »

As pretty much everyone knows on this site by now, Subarus, particularly thier suspension, are very interchangable amoung body styles and years. Especially so with these first gen legacys and first gen imprezas. That being said i have a 1990 legacy L that i am building into an open light rally car. I previously had stock 04 sti springs and struts mounted all the way around which were great on the street but they were a bit stiff for off road for me and lifted from stock about .5 inch. I eventually got a chance to put on some take off 02 wrx springs and struts which actually worked great. the spring rate with the strut was surpisingly comfortable off road and on the street with about .75 inches over stock. i had that for about 2 years and quite enjoyed my setup and would recommend it again for someone starting out as a cheapish option. That being said, i am building a race car and wanted something bigger and better.

Ranging from $800 all the way up to $40,000 and beyond there are lots of companies that make gravel coilovers for subaras and there are a few threads on here discussing them on this site. Long story short, i wanted the performance and adjustability that i had been lacking from a stock setup. Did some searching and found K-sport making gravel coilovers. As i trolled through old posts, many people disliked the setup as being poorly made and overall just sucking. but as the posts became newer, i saw a convincing trend of their product evolving and getting better. Within the last year or so i have seen nothing but good things. On K-sports site the rally gravel coilovers are actually made specifically for this body style and not modded in some way from another model for another car so the spring rates match the shock dampening for this weight. They are listed for 1650 plus shipping on k sport (could find them through other sites for 1575 shipped). Curious, i called k-sport directly and after several minutes of talking and liking what i was hearing, the man on the phone became very frank and asked, what is it going to take to make this deal? I said make me an offer i cant refuse. (i know... corny, but surprisingly effective) And after a little back and forth i had a set coming to my house for 1485 shipped. Stoked!

Fitment. with my experience with coilovers i know a bit of prevenitive maintenance is key. So I moved all of the moving parts ie. locking rings and springs perches and coated them and the threads of the body with anti sieze. Although they did not come set up to bolt right on, the coilovers came with good instructions to set up for installation . I first set the preload with adjustable lock rings/spring perch and lock those in place. Now the really cool part of these coilovers is the body is threaded all of the way from top to bottom and the black part where it bolts to the knuckle is also threaded so it can be turned up or down to get your desired right hieght. more on that later. I measured the old suspension and figured i would make the new stuff have the same dimentions as a good starting point. Once everything was all set up with lots of anti sieze and hours of measuring and locked together, i installed. Pretty straight forward. Everything fit as it should.

When i lowered the car down though i was shocked to see how high the new suspension had lifted it. Probably 2.5 inches over stock, maybe more. I didnt measure, just laughed and reracked after taking a picture. I lowered it down as far as i could, dropped it down about an inch. Turns out that in the front eventually the threaded body sticks down lower then the black ears and will touch the front axle boots if your not careful. So i am sitting about 1.5 inches over stock, i like the ground clearence so i wasnt to disapointed, although the lack of adjustability towards stock level was annoying.

The struts are 36 way adjustable so i started them out in the middle at 18 at all 4 and went over a speed bump in the parking lot, ouch, way to stiff. Dropped it down to 14. noticably better. Right now im sitting at 10 and i like it, not so bouncy and stiff on the roads and great off road. Still lots of seat time to dial in my settings but this is a good starting place.

I also made a set of coilover covers from some oil soaked canvas and bailing wire to protect my investment which once i have made my DIY i plan making a link from this post to that.

I only have 15 miles off road with them currently so i will repost later with more definitive results but right off the bat, wow. So much better then even the wrx stuff i liked so much. The rear top hats are a bit noisey, but hey, what did i expect. If your still reading, sorry for the long windedness, i just wanted to be thorough.

K-Sport Part Number for 89-94 Legacy: CSB080-GR

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Before, with wrx
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K-sport after initial install
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Last edited by TurnNburn on Tue May 05, 2015 11:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1990 NA 2.2 Open Light rally car
MConte05
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Re: K-Sport Gravel Rally Coilovers

Post by MConte05 »

What are the actual spring rates. Just because they specify the body style doesn't mean they actually had proper testing to figure out the spring rate. I've been running All Wheels Driven coilovers on my rally legacies for years. Trying to get them revalved to better match the spring rates I've been running (250 front, 225 rear). 36/82/41 way dampers don't mean much. I'd rather have a proper damper matched to the spring.

Glad to see another Legacy out there, I've been running with them for almost 4 years now.

-Matt Conte
542 teamCONTEracing Legacy
TurnNburn
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Re: K-Sport Gravel Rally Coilovers

Post by TurnNburn »

Spring rates are 336 front and 280 rear, but i agree spring rate vs. dampening combo is key to get dialed in and it doesnt matter how many way adjustable they are.

And i also agree that just because the part numbers are different doesnt mean any actual R&D went into them. Just that they fit. And for all i know the only difference is the top hat for the bolt pattern.

I used to work at All Wheels Driven as Barretts main tech. So i know all about his suspension personally. I even built your coilovers back when i worked there. They were orange right? I choose to not deal with or support Barrett in anyway for several reasons. I dont really feel i need to bash on him anymore then he has done for himself, but i could tell you some stuff that would blow your mind.

That being said, i am a fan of yours and have been fallowing your build thread and racing career for years. Totally not in a creepy way. You were one of the main reasons i did a legacy rally car build instead of the quintasential impreza rally car.
1990 NA 2.2 Open Light rally car
MConte05
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Re: K-Sport Gravel Rally Coilovers

Post by MConte05 »

Rates seem a bit high, especially given how light a rally prepped Leggy can get. I could see the rates being okay for a street legacy weighing in at 3200 pounds. However a race prepped Legacy can drop down to 2950 pounds without a lot of effort, right now mine is sitting around 2850 and with a 54/46 weight distribution. A little bit more even than some Imprezas.

Although I am always curious about cheaper stuff. I am a firm, FIRM believer in using parts to its full potential. I'd rather race two more races a year then drop $4-5k on some mid-range rally suspension, especially when I don't feel like my current suspension is holding me back. Too many ralliests in north america get fixated on what equipment they have. Thinking that if they can't beat the guy who has been racing for 15 years, its not because they have only 3 races under their belt, its because he has RSSP suspension and they have AWD or Hotbits. When in reality it's because that other driver has 15 years of experience under his belt, and in rallying experience is undeniably king. It's why Chris Duplessis set top 10 stage times at NEFR in a B-Spec Fiesta, embarrassing the hell out of a lot of OL and Open class cars.

Don't take that as a dig on you, I'm glad to see you trying out the cheaper stuff. Just wanting people who read this thread in the future to try and get that mindset. Try to get as much seat time as you can, enter as many races as you can with what you got. Don't keep upgrading engine/gearbox/etc thinking that'll improve your times. Instead of dropping $1200 on some fancy turbo, buy 6 new tires. Instead of spending $900 on some DCCD controller, enter another race. Focus strongly on a reliable engine (2.2 NA engine is freaking rock solid compared to a 2.5) that you can beat on mercilessly without worrying about a thing, even if its down 15 hp on a comparable engine. Focus on a good powertrain, quicker steering, decent suspension, and GREAT tires. If you can keep up the focus to race with what you got for several years, you'll see more and more speed come with every race.

I've barely upgraded my cars in between races, and I can see and feel a noticeable speed difference in just how comfortable I get with the car, with the notes, and with myself. Being able to focus (i need a thesaurus) on just one aspect of the car, the nut behind the wheel, instead of thinking in the back of my head about damping, or boost response, or "i wonder if this part is helping", you can just focus on driving. Knowing the car is still the same from the last race. Can I enter this corner a little bit faster, can I brake just a little bit later, my tires haven't changed from 2 months ago, my brakes haven't changed from two months ago, lets push it.

Gotta stay humble in this sport, going to get spanked by guys who have been racing for years in lesser equipment. But when you start beating guys with $30-50k more invested in their cars then your $6k you've spent, that's when it feels good. :)

Keep me in the loop on your build. I'm always happy to help out new ralliests and especially legacy guys!
TurnNburn
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Re: K-Sport Gravel Rally Coilovers

Post by TurnNburn »

I dont take that as a dig at all. Quite the opposite. Constructive critisism from someone who knows who they are talking about is always appreciated by me. There are all to many people in this world that spout off garbage they read online as fact that applies to every car every time, and the real world that is simply not the case. But you had a set of these coilovers before your AWD if i remember correctly? My mentality is more that i want to build a decently setup car that i can grow into as a driver, without breaking the bank when i can get away with it. And putting the dollars where i think it will actually matter. Thats why i bought 4 brand new Silverstone rally tires with spare rims, really nice seats and safety gear and why my engine/running gear is bone stock. K-sport is just what i could afford with that in mind in hopes that it was as good as they said it was at almost half the price of the next step up.

The car is pretty much done being prepped. Sent pictures off yesterday to get log booked. I just need to get/install some Terra Coms (or some other communication) and a Terra Trip (or some other device like that). I dont have a build thread yet but i should be starting one soon. Mt. Hood Rally up in Hood River, Or was the first rally i ever went to as a spectator/volunteer so i want to debut there on Oct. 17th. Oregon Trail is april 24th-26th so i wont be ready for that but i will still go to watch and cheer on the local guys.
1990 NA 2.2 Open Light rally car
MConte05
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Re: K-Sport Gravel Rally Coilovers

Post by MConte05 »

For a rally computer, use a smartphone with an external GPS. There are lots of great rally odo apps out there that it renders the old school rally computer obsolete. Honestly don't even need a real rally computer in NA rallying. I've co-driven two events where the computer failed, and then even the stock odo failed! Just ended up doing time-speed-distance calculations to get roughly where we needed to be.

I ran my first event on KYB AGX's, and crashed. The next event after I rebuilt the car I had those orange AWD's you built. Worked great, and still are on the old car that I have since sold. Have run DMS's for LSPR when my AWD's weren't back from being rebuilt. They felt great, but couldn't tell a big enough difference honestly to drop all my cash on new stuff. I'm looking to spend about $1200 in getting the current struts revalved to be a bit softer. The AWD's right now work really really well when going really fast and pushing REALLY hard. But in the slower stuff its just a bit too bouncy and stiff.

If I was going to be building a budget legacy that would be at the top of the regional podiums from scratch, this is what my recipe would be:

- NA 2.2L SOHC engine
- DeltaCam HP grind (great for NA OL cars, and cheap, noticeable power shift)
- Open intake (had Gorilla intake on my old car, was excellent)
- 4.11 gearbox, 4.44 if you can find cheap, but no real noticeable difference
- Steering quickener (custom affair, but 110% worth it. Easily the best cheap $$$ spent in helping me feel more confident to go quicker)
- 185 tires (195 is way too big, ideally 175, but hard to find in that size)
- $2-3k suspension of some sort
- GrpN 4 pot brakes in the front, stock turbo legacy vented rears. GOOD pads on both. Proportioning valve or balance bar for sure
- Proper Differentials. I have Cusco 1.5 way front and rear diffs that came with my new car. Holy crap does that make a world of a difference. But would have been lost on me and maybe hindered me really if I started out with the proper diffs. Was good to learn how to drive a 2.5wd car before jumping to a proper 4WD car.

The turbo car I have now is a stock 2.2T turbo with the VF11 on it. Making maybe 170hp. Only about a 40hp bump over the NA car I left. I'm a believer in progressive progress. Can't make too extreme of a jump, or else practically need to relearn all your driving mechanics again. Going from 130hp to 260hp of a typical Open car is a big jump. I figure once I am on top of the regional overall consistently, I'll start thinking about slowly upgrading the power to get on the same level as the national SP guys. But for now, still a lot more learning to do.

My biggest moment where it hit me that I still suck, was at LSPR this year. I had been running fresh 195 BFG soft tires all weekend. Hit a berm hard and packed up the bead with rocks pretty badly. I barely had any spare tires so I had to put on my worn to hell medium 185 BFGs on the front. I expected to be pushing everywhere and it was going to be a nightmare. But to be honest... I couldn't tell a damn difference. So until I can legitimately feel the difference between a worn medium tire and a soft compound new tire.... I still suck. Even if we are winning regional rallies outright. Until I can be behind Higgins or the very top open cars by a half second a mile or a second a mile with what I got, then I still suck and can improve as a driver.
czei
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Re: K-Sport Gravel Rally Coilovers

Post by czei »

MConte05 wrote:
- 185 tires (195 is way too big, ideally 175, but hard to find in that size)
- $2-3k suspension of some sort
- GrpN 4 pot brakes in the front, stock turbo legacy vented rears. GOOD pads on both. Proportioning valve or balance bar for sure
- Proper Differentials. I have Cusco 1.5 way front and rear diffs that came with my new car. Holy crap does that make a world of a difference. But would have been lost on me and maybe hindered me really if I started out with the proper diffs. Was good to learn how to drive a 2.5wd car before jumping
Thanks for the great info! I have a "budget" rallyx car and have been trying various cheap options, keeping in mind driving technique is more important, but enjoying working in the car. Wish someone had never recommended that 2.5L swap :-(

On the tire width issue, the dirt/clay roads around here get packed so hard that wider tires do seem to help. The skinnier may be better initially, but after 40 runs the gravel gets swept off and the clay is so hard and grippy your tires squeal.

The diff question is interesting to me... My phase 1 transmission is starting to go again and I'm trying to figure out what to do. The fastest guy at the last race by huge margin swears by PPG gears and no LSD because the courses are so tight.

Talking to local transmission shops, adding a front/back LSD and/or RA gearset to a 5MT would be as or more expensive than a full 6MT swap. Why go with a modified 5MT over a 6MT swap?
MConte05
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Re: K-Sport Gravel Rally Coilovers

Post by MConte05 »

RallyX is a different beast all together than stage rally. I took my rally car to a RallyX recently and man... what works in stage at 100+mph sweepers does not work at all on 30mph tight sloppy courses. The diffs I laid out are too strong for rallyX, you'll push everywhere.

I'll still stand by my word saying narrower tires are better. I can feel a big difference in acceleration just going from my 185's to my 195's. I'd rather stay on my 185's!

If I was building a strictly rallyX car, I'd focus more on a proper diff in the rear, and maybe a DCCD type for the center. Possibly leaving the front as a viscous. Definitely not a strong plated. I wouldn't be worrying about brakes at all on a RallyX car, just good pads that are extremely effective from cold. Stage pads and rotors have to deal with miles and miles of high speed braking and left foot braking. RallyX at most deals with 60 seconds or less and maybe 5-6 hard stops. So having a pad/caliper/rotor combo that is lightweight and can get up to temperature extremely quick is more important.

Steering quickener will be your biggest improvement for RallyX. In rally you generally don't want to be full opposite lock, as you are scrubbing speed off quickly doing that. But in RallyX that's part of the game, but less time flailing your arms around the better.
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Re: K-Sport Gravel Rally Coilovers

Post by TurnNburn »

I know this is a bit off subject (maybe this conversation can be moved once i get a build thread going), but what are your thoughts on running sway bars. I just have the stock stuff on there now and i like how it drives. when I tried running them while removed and it all felt loose and slopping, i just like the feel of the car better with them. Im not sure if/how bigger bars would help since we arent really loading the suspension while cornering.

Talked to Delta Cams today, pulling some cams today to send off on monday. The guy seemed pretty knowledgable with a rally grind and suggested getting a 230 grind. When you referenced a Delta HP regrind, is this the lift you were suggesting? He said there was one bigger then that but he suggested i didnt get it as it makes the car annoying to drive out of the power band and basically kills the idle.

PS. When you read this josh, can you pm me what i need to do to start a build journal, thanks in advance.
1990 NA 2.2 Open Light rally car
Legacy777
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Re: K-Sport Gravel Rally Coilovers

Post by Legacy777 »

Good conversation guys!

Regarding Delta Cams, typically their 220 grind is the "torque" grind, while the 230 is the "HP" grind.


As for starting a build journal, I just need to add you to the group. Did you want this thread to be your build thread or did you want to start a new one and link or copy these threads to that one?

If you can at least start a new thread with a little more general info, I'd prefer that. I'd have to see about moving the posts since these would be older than the new one. You could always copy and paste the discussion. Let me know what your thoughts are and I can try and get something setup for you.
Josh

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1990 Legacy (AWD, 6MT, & EJ22T Swap)
2020 Outback Limted XT

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czei
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Re: K-Sport Gravel Rally Coilovers

Post by czei »

I don't know a darn thing about changing an engine's power output via changing the cams, but I thought that changes of that sort also required changes in the ECU which we can't do easily because of ODB1?

Or are you saying with new cams the engine magically creates more torque or HP? How much increase are we talking about here?
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Re: K-Sport Gravel Rally Coilovers

Post by MConte05 »

I think I had the 230 grind. It helps shift the powerband to the right, and on an NA motor used for rallying, that's where you'll be. Basically constantly over 4000 RPM's and up to redline. The cams are a great way to get cheap power that is actually noticeable. I loved them in my old engine. Bulletproof.

As for sways. Remove them. I've ran one race with a stock swaybar on the back, and I ended up spinning out at over 80mph. High speed 270* spin. Scary. You want as much articulation as you can get with these cars. Use the Legacies higher ground clearance as an advantage and dive deep into the corners using the ditches. You can use swaybars to "fine tune" the chassis, but because the grip is constantly changing in rally, it's better to just have a consistent setup that will work in all conditions. Good dampers plus no swaybars does the trick.
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Re: K-Sport Gravel Rally Coilovers

Post by Legacy777 »

czei wrote:I don't know a darn thing about changing an engine's power output via changing the cams, but I thought that changes of that sort also required changes in the ECU which we can't do easily because of ODB1?

Or are you saying with new cams the engine magically creates more torque or HP? How much increase are we talking about here?

Since these ECU's are MAF based they will accommodate for some modifications to the engine that allow for more airflow. The cams simply do that, they allow more air into the engine. As a result the MAF measures that and injects more fuel. For a non-turbo engine the stock injectors should be fine for the added fueling requirements.
Josh

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1990 Legacy (AWD, 6MT, & EJ22T Swap)
2020 Outback Limted XT

If you need to get a hold of me please email me rather then pm
TurnNburn
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Re: K-Sport Gravel Rally Coilovers

Post by TurnNburn »

Thanks for clarifying the different grinds josh. And I will start a new build thread and just link this conversation later once i can make something coherent.

Now that i have the coilovers on and have put some miles on them i think i will try ripping out the sway bars and try again. When i attempted the first time i just had the 100k mile wrx stuff on.
1990 NA 2.2 Open Light rally car
James614
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Re: K-Sport Gravel Rally Coilovers

Post by James614 »

There's some great info here. I was looking at the K-Sports once upon a time (before I knew I was coming to Japan and putting my car in long term storage), and was enticed by what they offered. I'll be really interested to hear how these work out for you.
93 Touring Wagon (EJ20G 5spd Swap) -- Finally back and running strong as ever!

05 Outback 2.5XT 5spd -- Now the wife can have her SUV and get in on the turbo Legacy goodness at the same time.
TurnNburn
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Re: K-Sport Gravel Rally Coilovers

Post by TurnNburn »

small update that I thought would be relevant. After putting the suspension through its paces I have notices several small ''puddles'' that form under the struts while parked over night, especially the fronts. You can visually see what looks like oil coming from the bottom of the shock so I know that is what is the culprit. The average size is about the area of 4 quarters put together. Not totally unexpected but a bit excessive in my opinion, as I had previously read on k-sports site that a little assembly lube ''leakage'' was normal. I called k-sport and they said this was normal and that I should not worry and I should take pictures and if things kept on as they were or got worse that I should contact them and they would ''take care of it''. My main concern is that the grease is separating and wont properly lubricate... or are they simply just over filled with grease and leaking out what doesn't fit. I guess only time will tell.
1990 NA 2.2 Open Light rally car
speezly
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Re: K-Sport Gravel Rally Coilovers

Post by speezly »

MConte05 wrote:What are the actual spring rates. Just because they specify the body style doesn't mean they actually had proper testing to figure out the spring rate. I've been running All Wheels Driven coilovers on my rally legacies for years. Trying to get them revalved to better match the spring rates I've been running (250 front, 225 rear). 36/82/41 way dampers don't mean much. I'd rather have a proper damper matched to the spring.

Glad to see another Legacy out there, I've been running with them for almost 4 years now.

-Matt Conte
542 teamCONTEracing Legacy
I read an article somewhere that featured your orange legacy from the 100 acre woods rally! Nice to see you on the forum. I should have my 93 ready for light rally duty by next year, hopefully sooner. First gen ftw!
93 Legacy l AWD 5mt
87 GL-10 Turbo 5mt
TurnNburn
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Re: K-Sport Gravel Rally Coilovers

Post by TurnNburn »

Brief update- so after a few hundred miles of taking a serious beating, i think i can safely say that i like this setup for the money. I havent broken anything yet. Iv settled on shock settings of 12 in the front and 8 in the rear and so far it has worked well for me, but im always changing it.

But there are 3 things i find annoying design flaws that need to be address from the factory.

1-they have brackets and holes for ABS and brake lines but are not in stock locations. I had to bend the brackets to get the brake lines bolted on in the front and not even close in the rear.

2- the spring rate should be way softer. To avoid harshness and i think iit would be a better pair with the shock.

3- The fact that the bottom of the shock sticks so far past the shock body and hinders lowering height adjustability in the front. This is something i think would steer most people away from these coilovers as it is impossible to lower the car any lower then it is in in my picture.

All that being said, I got what i paid for and i dont regret getting them at all. Buying these instead of some better stuff meant that i could afford to buy brand new safety gear, a set of tires, and make it to a few rally crosses. So far, so good.

*this thread should probably be moved to the reviews section*
1990 NA 2.2 Open Light rally car
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