hesitation. starting to think it's a big problem.

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hesitation. starting to think it's a big problem.

Post by IggDawg »

Hey all. not to bring this back from the dead and all...

I've been having some hesitation issues since a little while after I got the car. It began when I hooked up a boost controller. Every now and then at part throttle full boost, I'd get this weird hesitation like one of the cylinders wasn't firing. It wasn't a general "bogging" sort of hesitation. The car would buck a few times. the hesitation is not cyclical in any kind of pattern, and it it is very distinct like there is a sudden spike of no power, then back to normal, then another spike, and so on. no pattern at all. just frequent, distinct hesitations till I get out of full boost.

Also, I was getting the occasional "backfire" if I suddenly went WOT. I attributed the backfiring to unburnt gas being dumped on the cats all teh sudden (I also assumed the cats were hot at this point from the part-throttle-full-boost issues MBCs give). so I disconnected the MBC after a while figuring these weird hesitations were a bad thing. I never had a problem at part throttle before with teh stock boost controller, and now I was getting the hesitation at part throttle. Maybe I was getting it before but wasn't intune enough with my car since it was new to me, and didn't notice it.

Recently I got some Xylene and ran a gallon of it at around 10:1 or 12:1 or so with 93 pump gas. so I was around 95 octane. This cured my hesitation issues. I just didn't have the same hesitation at all. I tried hooking up the boost controller and running that at part throttle for kicks. still no hesitation. At that point I was convinced that this hesitation was the engine pulling timing because the air charge was so hot. I figured the upp'd octane was behaving better and not causing the car to pull timing. Even a few tanks after the xylene, my car was running better than ever. much peppier than normal. felt a bit torquier. I chalked it up to the xylene cleaning the cylinders, ports, injectors, and whatnot else.

Last weekend I went up to the Tim O'Neil winter driving school. on the way up it was rainy but warmer than usual. It's been below freezing around here a lot. I was driving up there for a couple hours and I noticed my hesitations were earlier than normal. meaning, I'd get them at a lower part throttle boost than normal. Usually I didn;t get it unless I was around 0.055 MPa. I was getting it as low as 0.04 MPa. I figured it was because of the warmer air, or maybe because it was so wet out. either way I didn't let it bother me. So I drove rally style all day learning winter driving techniques. my car was on for a good portion of the day running fairly hot, and near the end it was at idle for around an hour or so solid. on the way back the hesitation was really bad and I wasn't getting much power. I was having trouble accelerating uphill to over 85 MPh. given, the hills were really steep. This is in NH. I chalked it up to heat soak. not only was the air warmer, but if my engine and tranny (4EAT) were heat soaked, I'd have less power than normal and the intake charge would certainly be hotter.

At this point I was still thinking my hesitation problems are the engine pulling timing. I haven't had anyone that knows what that feels like ride in my car. I myself don't know what that's supposed to feel like, but people describe it as a very distinct loss of power. Anyways, I'm starting to wonder what my engine is going to do when it turns to summer out here and the intake charge is a solid 50 degrees higher to start with. Aside from that one power loss problem that I still believe was due to heat soak, my car is still running peppier since the xylene, despite the hesitations. one of my friends suggested that maybe the computer is running on a more aggressive fuel map since the xylene. I haven't reset it since and it's only been about a week. that would explain why she accelerates better in general. if the hesitation problem is timing related, it would also explain why I'm getting the hesitations earlier. if the timing is advanced more in general, it would make sense that it gets retarded earlier.

Yesterday I poured in another gallon of xylene. just for kicks. I mean, it's fun :D . but I'm still getting hesitation. before, when I ran xylene I onl;y got one "puff" of hesitation and that was when the boost spiked to 0.08 MPa on the freeway during a downshift. now I was getting a little hesitation even under factory boost control. all this together is making me think whatever the problem is, it's getting worse. the xylene made it run better teh first time, but perhaps it accelerated the problem. this time, it's running better than without xylene, but I still feel the problem a little. I'm starting to wonder what it could be if it's not timing related. I mean, the air is going to get warmer... will I be unable to boost at all in warm air except at WOT or something? that's not right.

so what could it be? maybe I just need to reset the ECU. maybe I have a bad coil pack or plug wire and what I'm feeling isn't the engine pulling timing. maybe it's misfires :shock: . That'd suck, but a new coil pack or set of wires would help. any other ideas? I'm sorry for the story, but this is the only big problem my car is having and like half my posts here are me complaining about it in one way or another. Thanks for any help.

PS - will the engine ping because of a charge that is too hot, or does that just cause pre-ignition knock?
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Post by boostjunkie »

To answer your last question, yes, an engine will ping if the air-charge is too hot.

Your hesitation problems do seem similar.to mine, execpt I've never experienced hesitation under PTFB, except for before I changed out the crappy bosch plugs that were on the car. The hesitation was ALWAYS accompanied by a random CE light that would go away after 5 sec or so. I thought it was a misfire code, but some people on this board says our ecu doesn't throw codes for misfires :shock: After the change to a colder NGK plug, the PTFB hestitation went away. So I ask you, do you get any CE lights during the hesitation?

Secondly, I've NEVER been able to get rid of the hesitation, which is consistent at 5000-5300rpm . . . all the time. Like you said, it feels like the engine is pulling timing and that after that, it can start to advance it again (ALOT!!). Car pulls EVEN harder after 5300rpm than it did before 5000rpm.

Now here's where things get really screwy . . . The hesitation is ALWAYS there, no matter what psi I'm pushing into it. When I go back to stock boost, I don't notice the hesitation, but only because the car pulls at that same rate throughout the powerband. As I start to increase the boost above stock, the hesitation rears its ugly head . . . I notice because everywhere else in the powerband I notice improvements EXCEPT THAT DAMN SPOT!! I'm intercooled as well, so I don't think pinging due to intake charge is a problem when I'm only running say 10psi. Stock is 8.9, right?

I've heard a couple theories on the other boards about hesitation. Overactive knock sensor, intake manifold resonance frequencies, yadda, yadda, yadda. I've also heard that our heads don't flow too well when compared to the 2.5L n/a breatheren. Could it be that at any flow rate above 8.9psi that the heads just don't flow enough air at specific rpms? Alot of factors can come into play as well. Injector flow (pretty much every turbo legacy out there has a shitload of miles), valve spring wear, whathaveyou.

No matter what I do to modify my car anymore (besides the injectors), I know the limiting factor are the heads. There is a large part of my brain that thinks the heads are at least part of the hesitation issue . . . but like always, I could be way off base again. The only way I can test this theory is to take a set of heads off my DOHC GT engine, which currently resides in my mechanic's garage. Will I have the patience to try this swap, maybe? But that's what I'm thinking is causing at least my hesitation.

Sorry for the novel. I've been thinking about this ever since I started noticing the hesitation. Rest assured, you're not alone. :cry:
[url=http://www.angelfire.com/md3/91turbolegacy/images/On_the_Lawn.jpg]1991 Legacy Turbo (RIP)[/url]

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Post by IggDawg »

As for the CEL, I've had one in the whole time I've had the car (all of 3 months maybe). I yanked the vacuum hose to the MAP when I was playing with the boost controller. I forgot to put it back on. I'm prertty sure everyone's done that at least once :D . but no CELs with the hesitation.

I don't think it's a flow issue or the hesitation would be more of a constant bog than bucking. I don't know about the knock sensor on either of our engines. I have the white connector so I'm assuming it's fine. and if the problem is pinging I don't want to damp it too much :D .

And I have bosch plugs right now. just some regular platinum crap. maybe my engine is eating these things and I need to get NGKs. I have heard the Bosch plugs don't fare well in our engines. hopefully it will cure my engine as it did yours. certainly it's a cheap fix.

also, I have an autotranny. if there was some resonance that was creating the 5-5.3k hesitation, there;s a lot of tranny fluid that could damp any vibrations in the engine like that I suppose. maybe that's why I haven't noticed it :confused: ? I'll try to see if my engine has some sort of hesitation like that. remember I mentioned I found it hard to accellerate past 85 MPh uphill that one time? well 85 MPh is around 5-5.3k RPMs at WOT in an auto. could be I hit the "sick spot." anyways I'll flog her a little on the freeway and see what's up. in the mean time I'll change out the spark plugs. let me thank you in advance if that helps :D
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Post by Legacy777 »

Igg,

Several things......First....get rid of the crap bosch plugs.....they do not run worth a hoot in the subie motors. Put in the appropriate NGK plugs.

Second....hook the vacuum hose back up to the MAP sensor, get everything relatively back to stock, and or so you don't have any CEL's.

For kicks & giggles check codes by using black connectors.

Next use the green connectors and run an active diagnostic.....

Then clear any codes by using both connectors.

Finally......reset your ECU.....on a cold engine, pull the battery cable for about 1 hr........hook it back up and let car idle for 10-15 min. Turn car off.....then go drive it.....see how it feels.

Some of the steps above could be skipped or combined.....but I'm being rather anal and thorough, just to make sure nothing is missed.
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Post by DLC »

I'm getting the exact same hesitation as IggDawg is describing, and it started just a few months ago. Up till that point, the car pulled like CRAZY up to 6700, even when the temps outside were ~100F and the car was warmed up.

This is with NO cats and an intercooler.

Now the temps are ~20F, and the car still does it when it's just barely warmed up. It's always right around .5BAR and if i get into it more, it backfires meanly and scares the crap out of me.

I've changed NOTHING on the car since June or July, not moved a wire or anything.

I'm tempted to get an MotorVac again, to see if i have some built up gunk in the cylinders in the last 30 months since i did it last, and change the plugs from Denso Iridiums to NGK.

Finally, perhaps my Knock Sensor has finally given out and needs to be replaced...

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Post by IggDawg »

Josh - First, I've got that cable hooked back up. I dunno if you've ever forgotten to put that thing back in place, but if you touch the throttle with any more than a feather's weight it stalls out :D .

I'll definitely reset the ECU if things don't clear up right away when I change the plugs. I was stupid about them. I knew NGKs were the way to go with subies. I've been huge into the NA 2.5s for a long time now since I've had my Impreza. So I've been privy to hearing all the "colorful" comments people have about any other brand especially Bosch. But the only auto zone near my work doesn't have NGKs, so I went with Bosch instead of waiting another day and picking up NGKs :rolleyes: . Anyhow, I found a NAPA and got the proper plugs. I'm doing a bunch of things today (tire rotation, oil change, and Amsoil in the front diff) so changing the plugs shouldn't add much more time to my project.

DLC - Good to hear I'm not the only one with the problem. By "good" I jsut mean that I'm glad it's not a unique problem :D . who knows.. maybe it's winter gas? maybe it's the cold weather doing something we're not expecting? in any event hopefully the sparks will at least help. and maybe beating some carbon out on the commute home would help too. I'd sure like to be able to drive this car like normal. BTW - I want an intercooler :(
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Post by boostjunkie »

I'm willing to bet the bucking under partial throttle will be cured with the switchout of the plugs. Trust me:) And for the record, bosch plugs don't work in ANY car (even European cars seem to have problems! LOL!)
For kicks & giggles check codes by using black connectors.

Next use the green connectors and run an active diagnostic.....
Hey Josh, can you run the diagnostic while driving around normally (read: under hard acceleration?). I want to see if maybe the diagnostic could pick up something instantaneous (specifically at 5000rpm) as opposed to a stored ecu code . . .
[url=http://www.angelfire.com/md3/91turbolegacy/images/On_the_Lawn.jpg]1991 Legacy Turbo (RIP)[/url]

[url=http://www.angelfire.com/md3/91turbolegacy/images/Summer_Car_Wash3.jpg]2000 Celica GT-S[/url]
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Post by entirelyturbo »

boostjunkie wrote:I'm willing to bet the bucking under partial throttle will be cured with the switchout of the plugs. Trust me:) And for the record, bosch plugs don't work in ANY car (even European cars seem to have problems! LOL!)
I've heard that no matter what it is, no matter where it comes from, put NGK's in it, Subaru, BMW, Jeep, Messerschmidt, whatever :o !


boostjunkie wrote:Hey Josh, can you run the diagnostic while driving around normally (read: under hard acceleration?). I want to see if maybe the diagnostic could pick up something instantaneous (specifically at 5000rpm) as opposed to a stored ecu code . . .
No my name's not Josh, but I would imagine so... When my canister purge valve went out a couple years ago (seems to be a big problem lately), I did a D-check and...um...got lazy and left the wires together flashin the code for, well, only a couple months... under many driving conditions, so I'd imagine it could...
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Post by boostjunkie »

I should try that this afternoon.

Also, IggDawg, make sure you gap the plugs properly (maybe you know this or maybe you don't. I think the manual calls for .38-.44.

What about hotspots in the cylinder? Could excessive carbon deposits on certain area of the cylinder walls or pistons cause hotspots . . . leading to pre-det?
[url=http://www.angelfire.com/md3/91turbolegacy/images/On_the_Lawn.jpg]1991 Legacy Turbo (RIP)[/url]

[url=http://www.angelfire.com/md3/91turbolegacy/images/Summer_Car_Wash3.jpg]2000 Celica GT-S[/url]
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Post by IggDawg »

thanks for the tidbit on the gap. saves me having to look it up :D .

Also, I hope I don't have any carbon deposits. Xylene is supposed to do a HELL of a good job cleaning that stuff out. so I hope I don't have anything in tehre that could have survived a couple gallons of the stuff :D . Also, I thought pre-det was supposed to kill our engines like wicked quick, and post-det was the only kind we could cope with for any length of time beyond a millisecond. isn't pre-det supposed to blow rings and screw up pistons and all kinds of stuff like that almost instantly?
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Post by boostjunkie »

Dunno.

Oh yeah, you might also wanna try the stock temp range on the plugs, and then maybe colder ones if that doesn't aleviate the problem. I just tried the colder ones . . . *shrug*
[url=http://www.angelfire.com/md3/91turbolegacy/images/On_the_Lawn.jpg]1991 Legacy Turbo (RIP)[/url]

[url=http://www.angelfire.com/md3/91turbolegacy/images/Summer_Car_Wash3.jpg]2000 Celica GT-S[/url]
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Post by Legacy777 »

Yeah you could leave the connectors connected....however the active diagnostic is more to tell the ECU to pull and diag all the MPFI componants. I guess it wouldn't hurt, you could drive around for a little bit and boost it good and see if anything shows up.

Ideally us OBD1 folks need some sort of datalogger or display to see what the different sensors are doing. Unfortunately, the only thing I know of is the select monitor. It may be worth paying for one hour of a tech's time to go and drive around with you and look at various sensors and info under different conditions. I am thinking about doing that on mine.

Dave.....does anyone do motorvacs.....what's involved.......anything special........I could probably use one......

About the one step colder plugs.......unless you're running much higher boost.....i'd probably stick with the stock heat range......if you have one colder plug then what the motor was designed for, the plugs, combustion mix will not get to the correct temp and you will get less power and fuel economy. I couldn't tell you the line between when you should change to a step colder for how much boost you're running.
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Post by Aaron's ej22t »

iggdawg & boostjunkie......the spark plug gaps are .039-.043. :o
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Post by boostjunkie »

Hehe, WHOOPS!!

By chance, what gap is everyone running? I'm pretty sure I have mine gapped at .43-44.
[url=http://www.angelfire.com/md3/91turbolegacy/images/On_the_Lawn.jpg]1991 Legacy Turbo (RIP)[/url]

[url=http://www.angelfire.com/md3/91turbolegacy/images/Summer_Car_Wash3.jpg]2000 Celica GT-S[/url]
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Post by IggDawg »

Well, it was the plugs alright. the right bank plugs looked alright, and the left bank had deposits on the electrodes. In any event, I swapped out the bosch plugs with the NGK V-pOwAr plugs. and man did it make a difference. zero hesitation. much smoother all around. I actually said "w00t!" when I took it for a spin. so hopefully this'll cure the problem for a good long while. w00t!

I gapped the plugs to around .04. I actually didn't have a gapper. It just so happens that 1 mm is just a hair less than .04. It also just so happens that a small zip-tie from the zip-tie multi pack at Wal Mart is almost exactly this width. so I used a zip tie to gap my plugs :D . they were all consistantly gapped at exactly 1 zip-tie from the factory so I didn't have to alter the gap at all. if I start getting misfires, I'll gap my next set to around .035. Someone on NASIOC said that as the gap get bigger due to the electrode wearing away, misfires can be caused by the spark being weak due to the large gap and getting "blown out" by boost.

So yeah. Bosch has t3h sux0r. heavy sux0r. Thanks for all the info everyone :D .

-IggDawg
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Post by boostjunkie »

WHEW!! Glad SOMEONE FINALLY was able to cure their hesitation problem.
[url=http://www.angelfire.com/md3/91turbolegacy/images/On_the_Lawn.jpg]1991 Legacy Turbo (RIP)[/url]

[url=http://www.angelfire.com/md3/91turbolegacy/images/Summer_Car_Wash3.jpg]2000 Celica GT-S[/url]
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Post by Legacy777 »

igg......go bye a gapper :P
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Post by IggDawg »

I know :D . My friend promised he had one. he was coming over to use one of my garage bays to fix is friend's Tau-ass. He promised he had one and he didn't :D . So today I'm getting one of those. It'll be good to have it around.
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Post by boostjunkie »

That actually reminds me . . . I should check the gapping on my plugs. One more thing to do this weekend.
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[url=http://www.angelfire.com/md3/91turbolegacy/images/Summer_Car_Wash3.jpg]2000 Celica GT-S[/url]
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Post by DLC »

Well i replaced my aging Denso Iriciums with some NGKs last night, and the hesitation is now gone. The #1 plug was a little bit scorched on the porcealin, so it seems that cylinder might run a little hot, but all four plugs were still intact but a bit white.

There is still a tiny bit of hesitation, but not that show-stopping shudder that i had before.

Chalk up another one to good plugs.

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Post by mile hi »

Our heads are not the greatest but I don't think that they are real bad. I am rebuilding some with mechanical adjustable roller rockers and hope to get past the point where the 15lbs of boost was holding the valves open at about 73-7400rpm.
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Post by morgie »

I think that the first thing to do when diagnosticing Hesitation probs. should be : Unplug the O2 Sensor, and go for a test-drive.

That test would have saved me 5 months of try-and-error. (I didn't know we could run without the o2 sensor connected.. :( )
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Post by FG!! »

Hello, one more data point.

I was driving my car home from buying it and my own independent conclusion of what the problem before I knew of the big discussion here was that it was detonating causing the knock sensor to pull timing. The first thing I was going to try would be the plugs. I looked on here and see that pretty much everyone is on the same level, which is good :wink: .

So I picked up some NGK BKR6E11's (v-powers), and put a the low gap on them of .039. Hesitation and detonation for the most part is cured! :D

If I really try I can make it hesitate. I still have to reset the computer, so we'll see. But I think the next step might be to try BKR7E11's and gap them on the wider side of the spectrum.
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Post by Legacy777 »

Why the different plugs? The 7's are colder right?

The car will most likely run like crap, get bad gas mileage, etc. Unless you're running rather high boost....assuming you are a turbo car. For n/a....there's no reason to change plug temp ranges.

A buddy with a 2.5 rs put a proecm chip in, and changed his plugs to a one step colder plug, and experienced exactly what I said above......I told him to put the correct temp range plugs in and his issues got better.

The whole hesitation goes much deeper then just a knock sensor IMO. It may be a slight cause, but I feel there are other issues with a/f ratios and such.
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Post by FG!! »

Yup, the 7's are colder. I am turbo. I'm not reccomending anyone to slap the 7's in and forget about them. But it's something high on the "to try" list. Read them fairly shortly after putting them in.

The problem with my car was for sure the knock sensor. A very quick round of audible clacks at 3750 and I would lose power for the rest of trip to redline. The plugs helped, but your right, it can still be a fueling problem.

I've only had this car for two days, so more issues may pop up :cry: . But I'm really happy with how good it runs right now. This car is very high on the fun factor scale :D .
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