Blam!! I hope...

THAWA · Post by **THAWA** » Sat Oct 18, 2003 12:01 am

Well today in my everlasting struggle to make my car not lame I decided to get rid of that bubble in my radiator(or so I think). I tried following someones, I think vrg's, method of turning on the car, letting the fluid rise then pulling the maf, squeezing the hose and shaking the engine. WhenI was doing this I noticed a few things. First there is a clicking sound after I pull the maf when the engine is colder than normal. It appears to be coming from the area where the tranny and engine meet. Anyone know what's making this noise? Second there is a buzzing sound after I pull the maf when the engine is at normal temps, that appears to be coming from under the intake manifold, on the passenger side. There's some little thing there that says delco(knock sensor?) could this be whats making this noise? Those two only happen when the maf is unplugged and the key still is in the on position. Third, when shaking the car I noticed after a few shakes there was a tick coming from the rear end. I went back there pushed down on it a few times and it was coming from there. It didn't seem to come from a certain side though. Anyone know what that could be? And finally the reason this thread is titled blam, I pulled codes today, got the 23 and a new one 14!!! Faulty fuel injector #1 Could this be why i smelled gas a lot and the car was dieing so much? I hope this is the main reason, not because I want there to be a problem with the injectors nor do I want any problems with the car at all, however, this seems like it could be a likely problem and would explain a whole lot of stuff (like why theres no pattern to it happening and why it only happens when hot etc) So anyway, does anyone know if any of those noises are normal? Also since I need to change injector #1 would it be best to just change them all at the same time? And would upgrading to something like impreza or wrx injectors be possible and even worth it?

Please excuse the lack of focus, I'm excited because I think i finally solved the problems

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Sat Oct 18, 2003 12:50 am

THAWA wrote:I tried following someones, I think vrg's, method of turning on the car, letting the fluid rise then pulling the maf, squeezing the hose and shaking the engine.

Yes, unplugging the MAF sensor is how I usually stop the engine from the engine bay.

First there is a clicking sound after I pull the maf when the engine is colder than normal. It appears to be coming from the area where the tranny and engine meet. Anyone know what's making this noise?

I dunno... IAC valve maybe?

Second there is a buzzing sound after I pull the maf when the engine is at normal temps, that appears to be coming from under the intake manifold, on the passenger side.

I hear that sound too on my car, I think.

There's some little thing there that says delco(knock sensor?) could this be whats making this noise?

Do you have an aftermarket knock sensor? I think the stock one is made by Denso.

It'd be weird if the knock sensor were making a noise, although I guess it's possible.

I just figured that sound was the fuel ceasing to flow or something.

Those two only happen when the maf is unplugged and the key still is in the on position.

I can't think of a way to easily check if this has to do with the MAF sensor being unplugged or not. It could be that any time the engine stops while the ignition is still on this happens. If it were a 5-speed I'd say just have someone pop the clutch while in gear and holding the brakes to stall the engine out. I guess you could try having someone cover the tailpipe with something to force the engine to stall, or maybe figure out a way to block the intake.

Third, when shaking the car I noticed after a few shakes there was a tick coming from the rear end.

If it's not coming from either side, then you mean you hear it coming from the middle? Maybe it's the differential carrier bushings being worn or something. I don't know that much about the rear drivetrain.

And finally the reason this thread is titled blam, I pulled codes today, got the 23 and a new one 14!!!

23 could have just been from unplugging the sensor while the engine was running.

The fuel injector monitor circuit basically looks at the voltage spike when the injector closes. It expects to see a spike of 30-60 volts or so as the magnetic field in the solenoid collapses.

If this spike doesn't happen it usually means the injector is at least temporarily stuck.

If an injector sticks open I'm pretty sure it could cause you to smell fuel in the engine bay and make the engine stall if it floods.

You might try clearing the code and seeing if it comes back again. I've gotten spurious injector codes before. When you do somethinig like unplug the MAF sensor you can really confuse the ECU.

I don't know if you need to replace all four injectors. From the factory they're not all that well balanced out anyway. You might consider putting the new injector in the runner for cylinder 3, though, since it is likely to flow a little better and might counteract the usual lean-in-cylinder-3 phenomenon to some exctent. Or take them all out and send them somewhere to have them cleaned professionally and all. It's possible that just cleaning out the injector will make it work right again.

If you want to upgrade injectors you won't be able to use USDM WRX injectors in your fuel rail since they're top feed while yours are side feed.

Someone who knows more about injectors can add to/correct this.

THAWA · Post by **THAWA** » Sat Oct 18, 2003 10:39 am

thank you informative as usual.

I've been getting 23 ever since I started pulling codes so its nothing new. I hink cleaning might do it, but if its really bad i might as well just get new ones.

I don't know if it said delco or denso now that i think about it, and i don't know if that was the knock sensor or not. It was just a rectangular piece under the intake manifold(read somewhere thats where it was).

At anyrate I hope this can be solved easily, and that this is the solution to the problems.

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Sat Oct 18, 2003 2:55 pm

If it 's rectangularish and under the passenger side of the intake manifold, that's the canister purge control solenoid.

The knock sensor is bolted to the block under the rear driver side intake manifold runner.

It seems possible to me that a malfunctioning CPC solenoid could stick open and allow fuel fumes into the manifold all the time, giving an exceedingly rich mixture.

THAWA · Post by **THAWA** » Sat Oct 18, 2003 8:02 pm

garr, just went and pulled ecu and tcu codes, nothing in the ecu after leaving the batt off for a couple hours last night and driving around for a good hour or so, with it dieing a couple of times. The tcu had an old 31-throttle sensor which ive not had before. I don't know what to do, and now it's started to die when braking hard so I have no idea whats going on.

THAWA · Post by **THAWA** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 6:36 am

Well I checked again and I'm stll getting 14. Today when I started the car it wouldn't stay on. It ran for about 2 seconds and died. Did this 3 times, then I decided to push on the gas a little bit. It stayed on for a while until it got warmed up and out on the street, then the dieing continued, mainly when braking. It did this again when I was coming home from work. I also got 24-air control valve, and 31-throttle position sensor(same as old tcu error). I've yet to get 23 but if I know my car it'll arrive soon enough. I'm starting to get too scared/angry to even take the car out on the road now.

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 7:16 am

Out of curiosity, what happens if you block the throttle open a little so it idles higher (like 1500 rpm or even more)? Maybe this is all the IAC valve or something.

THAWA · Post by **THAWA** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 8:06 am

I'm not sure about from inside the engine area, but I know that whenever I have this problem with it dieing and i rev up to about 1k rpms it doesnt die or do any of the funny things it does at like 750 or whatever the normal idle is.

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 2:51 pm

Then I wonder if maybe the IAC valve or idle switch could be causing your problem...

If it tries to die and you try to hold it at 1000 rpm, does it seem to smoothly run at a high idle?

THAWA · Post by **THAWA** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 3:15 pm

THAWA · Post by **THAWA** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 3:21 pm

I'm looking in the haynes manual for the check of the iac. It says to check it while cold then while at normal temps. For the normal check it says, "once the engine is off check to make sure the shutter has closed" what shutter is it talking about? the throttle body shutter or something else?

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 3:39 pm

I don't think the Haynes manual has it right. It seems to think it's an on/off valve or something, and that it doesn't do anything when the engine's warm. From what I understand it's driven with pulse width modulation at all times, though.

I don't know how to properly test the valve. You can do this preliminary check, though:

Unplug the valve's electrical connector. Check that the middle pin of the harness connector has +12v on it to verify that the car is powering the valve.

Then check the valve's coils. Hook an ohmmeter up to measure the resistance between the middle terminal on the valve and each of the side terminals. Both coils should be about 9 ohms.

You can also check for continuity between the harness connector and the ECU connector if you suspect that.

entirelyturbo · Post by **entirelyturbo** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 3:44 pm

My suggestion is to find the little screw that the throttle cable bracket hits to stop it. I'm talking about the one on top, NOT the one on the bottom of the throttle body, do NOT adjust that one, mine has been out of adjustment for a long time and I'm almost positive that is causing my idle problems...

Anyway, tighten the top screw a little. I suggest you do it in revolution increments, say 3 full revolutions, so that you have a reference to return it to normal position. IF the car will idle decently after you have adjusted this screw, then your IAC is stuck closed, and unfortunately, that's not an electronic problem...

THAWA · Post by **THAWA** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 4:20 pm

okay the connector is getting 12v. the resistance read 9.3-9.4 for both terminals which is about 9 ohms when you take into account the resistance of the wire itself. This was when cold. When hot however the resistance between pins 2 and three read 11.5 and the resistance between 1 and 2 read 10.9 So does this mean the iac solenoid is the problem?

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 4:36 pm

I don't know. Resistance of most conductors goes up when they get hot... and a couple of ohms shouldn't matter too much... If I get a chance I'll check what my car's valve's resistance is when it gets hot and let you know.

But subyluvr2212's right, the problem could easily be mechanical and not electrical.

You could try messing with the top throttle stop screw to get yourself a high idle, since you say the engine doesn't die when you hold the throttle open... then at least you could drive the car.

THAWA · Post by **THAWA** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 6:12 pm

Well I adjusted the screws after checking the resitance of the tps. It checked out okay, but i couldn't check the voltages of it. I set it to about 1250 for the idle, then i drove around for a bit. After I put it in park or neutral it was idling at like 2000 rpms but in a drive gear or reverse it was 1250. Very odd so rather than waste gas i decided to go back to normal(someone had marked it before so it made it easy). I drove around for a bit like that and stopped a few times for at least a minute, no rough idle no dieing. Came home parked it and waited for more than 5 mins, no roughness no dieing. It looks like the problem has been at least temporarily solved. I'll give it a few days before I make any strong descisions. Plus I've still got tons of other problems

At anyrate, thanks for the help guys.

Post by **Legacy777** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 6:46 pm

are you adjusting the TPS or IAC valve.

If TPS, what adjustment procedures are you using?

This is what you should use
http://www.main.experiencetherave.com:8 ... sting3.jpg

THAWA · Post by **THAWA** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 6:58 pm

I just turned that screw on the top with the spring.

entirelyturbo · Post by **entirelyturbo** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 7:57 pm

So that solved your dying issue?

If so, that means your IAC valve is stuck closed. The throttle body comes from the factory set to the point where it will not allow enough air through the plate at idle to keep the engine running. The IAC valve opens with a signal from the ECU, which notices via the TPS that the throttle plate is closed. If the car idles fine after you adjusted that screw, what is happening is you are forcing the throttle plate to stay open a little bit farther, enough to keep the engine running. Therefore, your IAC valve is not doing its job for some reason or another, why I can't say for sure...

THAWA · Post by **THAWA** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 8:04 pm

It solved the dying issue for now. I don't think the iac is always staying shut because sometimes it'll work fine and other times itll be lame and die. Either way it needs to be replaced, at least that's what it seems like. Though it might just be something else and this is just a temporary fix. Few questions, are the turbo and n/a the same? what about manual and auto? and to replace it it says remove the air hose and the coolant line. I shouldn't have to drain the radiator to do this do I? or does it just have coolant in it when the car is on or something?

On a side note. Victory is your's! I love family guy soooooooooooooooo much.

Post by **Legacy777** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 8:09 pm

So you're turning the screw with the spring and white mark on it, correct?

http://www.main.experiencetherave.com:8 ... P_1511.JPG

THAWA · Post by **THAWA** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 8:20 pm

yes thats the one. Is this wrong?

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 8:28 pm

The IAC valve may just be sticking sometimes due to years of crud collecting there. There are people who will tell you can clean it out with carb cleaner or something but some people have had bad experiences with that (the resulting valve just never worked right ever again). subyluvr2212 is in that latter camp I believe.

The turbo and non-turbo valves are different. I think the main difference is in the directions that the hoses come out.

You don't need to drain your radiator; the hoses are small and can easily be plugged when you remove them. You'll probably spill a few tablespoons of coolant.

Post by **Legacy777** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 8:38 pm

technically, no you really shouldn't turn that screw.....however it's done, and if it helps, then I'd just leave it alone. However I would say the situation falls into one of those cases, you are not necessarily correcting the problem. You're correcting the symptom.

As for the IAC valve. There are two types: a rotory valve & gate valve type.

subyluvr had the gate valve type. This was mainly on the early 90-91 MT equipped models. On the AT models they had the rotary type. The later MY MT's started coming with the rotary types, as I think they are better.

The only difference on the turbo model is the gasket or one way valve that goes in place to not allow boost to escape the manifold.

entirelyturbo · Post by **entirelyturbo** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 12:40 am

Yeah, I ruined mine with carb cleaner, that experience is what taught me how the stupid things work. I was having idle problems since I got the car, and on one occasion which I remember vividly, it stalled. I was backing out of a friend's driveway, and I didn't even know it, I was coasting in Reverse and went to engage the clutch again and only slowed the car down... Then I saw all my dash lights on

Anyway, if yours still operates correctly, then I would try to clean it out with brake cleaner. That will evaporate and shouldn't gunk it up.

If you decide it's screwed, go find a junkyard one. Do some diligent searching too, because I don't have many Subie-rich junkyards here and I needed the car to run good (it was cold and did NOT want to start with that valve stuck closed...). So I bit the bullet and bought a new one from the dealer... at a leisurely cost of $360!!!! I was able to afford that back then though, now with two cars and some house bills, no way!

Josh, I definitely won't do it since I got reamed on the new one, but is it possible to use a rotary valve on a 90-91 MT?

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