Alignment with 04 STi take-off suspension

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jamal
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Alignment with 04 STi take-off suspension

Post by jamal »

I finally went down to pep-boys today for an alignment after replacing most of my suspension, including a knuckle and control arm after an unfortunate incident involving a curb. I was standing there showing him how to adjust everthing and told him what I was trying for so it worked out pretty well.

The car is a 93 L AWD with 04 STi take-off suspension, and an SS rear swaybar I fit using lateral links from a 99 Impreza. In the rear I have intrax camber bolts set to max negative which supposedly provide an extra 2 degrees.

I knew the toe was messed up, and I went in with all the camber bolts set for max negative. Here are the results:

Code: Select all

Front camber
 Before          After
 L     R         L     R
-0.2  -1.3      -0.7  -0.8

Front caster
 Before          After
 L     R         L     R
 3.7   3.5       3.8   2.9

Rear camber
 Before          After
 L     R         L     R
-1.2  -1.7      -1.2  -1.7

Front toe is now zeroed out,
Rear toe is 0.05 deg out per side.

Not all that great, but I suppose it could be worse.

I was pretty disappointed that the left front would only go to -0.7 because we got the right up to -1.8. I guess I should run into a curb on that side too.

I don't know what's up with the front caster and why it went down so much on the left. It makes sense that there is less there, though, because my crossmember is slightly tweaked after that curb incident. I guess I could take a blowtorch, prybar, and hammer to it. I wish the Racecomp Engineering camber plates were less expensive.

As far as the rear goes, the difference in camber is most likely due to my ghetto hack job on the rear strut towers. I didn't want to touch the camber bolts to prevent slippage. You can also see that without the bolts I'd have positive camber.

Right now my plan to solve the rear camber problem is to get some plates milled/cnc'd that fit between the strut top and tower. They'll have a lip that fits in the center hole so the tops are located more securely and are hopefully even. I'll do the drawings myself in CAD and I think the lab at school has the machinery to do it. Otherwise It probably won't be too difficult to have a fabrication shop of some sort make them if I already have the plans.

In the meantime I might take out the rear left and file out the outer hole a bit more, which would give a little less negative camber.

On the other hand, since I had more negative camber on the right, maybe their machine isn't level.
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Post by ultrasonic »

I don't think you need more negative camber in the rear, I think you need less. To decrease understeer you want to increase grip in the front more than the rear. More negative camber will net more grip. Many experts choose to set rear camber at about half of the front camber, i.e. -1.4 degrees front, -0.7 in the rear (on Legacy and Impreza chassis). More negative camber in the front of your car will get you sharper turn in, and quicker transitions.

If your rear end has that amount of negative camber already, you should be able to back off the eccentric bolts and dial it down a bit. If you can get any more negtive in the front, that would help too.

I chose to go a bit more rear camber because I like a little more neutral handling, instead of mostly oversteer. I have about -1.2 degrees front and -0.9 degrees in the rear. It works fairly well, considering that I also have STi struts & springs, front swaybar, and rear adjustable swaybar.

I think most alignment guys, if they are not used to Subaru handling characteristics, will recommend less camber in the front, and more in the rear. That may be fine for a RWD car like a BMW, but it just doesn't work as well with the Subaru. Some of the tweaky autocross guys will take -3.0 degrees or more front camber. That requires adjustable top mounts to achieve those settings.

YMMV (your mileage may vary).
-steve-

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Post by BAC5.2 »

I would be pissed off if I had -1.2 and -1.7 degrees in the rear. They should be the same.

.05 toe out in the rear will help rotation, but will be a little unstable at speed. I'd narrow that up a bit to 0 or .01.

Caster shouldn't have changed when camber changed. Caster is non-adjustable and isn't really effected by camber. I like my camber/castor plates.

What was the max available camber in the rear? I'm shooting for -2.5 degrees in the front and -2.0 in the rear. .01 toe out at every corner. Max caster.
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Post by jamal »

I didn't ever say that I wanted more rear camber. What I want is more in the front.

I don't want to mess with the rear camber bolts, because they're more likely to slip when not maxed out. What I should have done is had him loosen everything up and bang on it to see if I could have gotten things even. That is the max negative camber in the rear right now the way I have things setup.

The plates I want to have made should even things out, and then with front camber/caster plates, I should be able to get everything setup pretty well.

Had the car up to about 90 yesterday and the toe in the rear didn't cause any problems. 0.05 degrees out was the smallest increment on the display at pep-boys. Maybe I should go somewhere else next time, but $55 for a "custom" alignment isn't bad.
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Post by ultrasonic »

jamal wrote:I didn't ever say that I wanted more rear camber. What I want is more in the front.
Oh. Yeah, sorry. I get it. That's pretty cool that they let you hang out while they went through the alignment, and $55 is not bad. I'd like to see what you come up with on your custom adjustable plates.
-steve-

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Post by SemperGuard »

Hey, just a quick dealie.

I'm sitting at

Front:
Camber
L -2.5
R -2.5
Caster
L 4.7
R 4.7
Toe
L 0
R 0

Rear:
Camber
L -2.4
R -2.7
Toe
L 0
R 0

Get some STi control arms, caster and camber for all. -2.5 is the MINIMUM postive camber I can have up front. I can go almost to -4 I think. The rear camber sucks balls though, I think I'm going to need some bolts back there.

As for the rear mounts, why don't you just use 90-91 Legacy tops? Also, if you're making some tops, can you make some that raise the car very slightly? I'll buy a pair if you do.

Bye now :D
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Post by jamal »

they are going to raise the rear of the car very slightly, actually. Like 1/4" at most. They'll just fit between the top and the inside of the tower to keep the strut centered, and not be adjustable. For that I'd have to make my own plates and come up with spring perches too. I'm doing a quick drawing in CAD right now that I'm going to e-mail to a company for a quote. I'll let you know what it is.

I'm not using 90-91 tops because I did the swap before anyone really knew they'd work. I'm using the 04 tops with filed strut tower holes, which is a bit ghetto. It started out nice with me drilling new inboard holes that would have given more negative camber, but when the tops didn't physically fit in the tower after that I ended up breaking out a file.

Edit- it's going to be like this:

Image

I might lose some unnecessary material in the end.
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Post by THAWA »

That was me up there BTW.

Just to note, if you do convert to STi track width, find some longer axles to go with it. One of my axle nuts keeps backing off. It won't be a pretty sight if I don't get this fixed before it finally gives.
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Post by BAC5.2 »

Hardy, Did you properly stake the axle nut?
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Post by THAWA »

Shit no :). The only axle nut that is torqued and staked properly is the right rear, as that axle has never come out. The other three axle nuts have been removed and improperly torqued and staked. The front right is an original nut that has been staked three times, aka it's useless. I suppose I can try a new nut, but that doesn't take away the fact that this nut only started backing out after widening the track. So I'm assuming these axles are being stretched. If the axle nut doesn't give, one of the joints, or the stub in the diff will give.

The good thing is though that the new style knuckle with the different abs design (tone ring on the axle, not bolted to the hub) will swap directly in, sensors and all.
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Post by BAC5.2 »

Did you go front and rear WRX width track? Don't you rub the hell out of the fenders?
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[quote="scottzg"]...I'm not a fan of the vagina...[/quote][quote="evolutionmovement"]This will all go much easier if people stop doubting me.[/quote]
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Post by THAWA »

Negative. I went 04+STi up front, 05+ STi in the rear. The rears rubbed the fenders more than stock, just roll the fenders. The front rubs at full lock on the fender liner only at slow speeds, but only with the new tires. yoko ES100's at 205/55-16 on rs wheels didn't rub. The fronts I think wouldn't rub if you used v7 STi/v8 non-spec C control arms, as the wheel base wouldn't change.
Rio Red 90 Legacy LS AWD 174k
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[url=http://folding.amdmbpond.com/FoldingForOurFuture.html]Do you fold?[/url]

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Post by BAC5.2 »

So 04 STi front control arms. 05 STi rear lateral links?

What did that do to your track width, and did the OE sway-bars still bolt up?

That is a cool combo!
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[quote="scottzg"]...I'm not a fan of the vagina...[/quote][quote="evolutionmovement"]This will all go much easier if people stop doubting me.[/quote]
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Post by 206er »

thawa, sounds like you will be blowing CV's in short order with that kind of stress on the axles.
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