Rebuilt Turbo Swap/Initial Startup Problems - (gurus??)

253.Asmo · Post by **253.Asmo** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:02 am

Ok, so first off, I tried to avoid for as long as possible being that "my swap won't work" guy. I've spent 6 months rebuilding this engine and swapping parts from my two cars. I enjoy the belief that I can tackle anything if I try hard enough

I've done the wiring for the auto - manual swap, swapped the cam and crank angle sensors. I've wired in the two boost sensors/solenoids, swapped ECU, bypassed the starter interlock.

When attempting to fire the car up, it catches and dies shortly after, just won't hold. I've got good spark to all four plugs, I have fuel pressure (and this is after I removed half the dash trying to get to the fuel pump relay)

Could my wiring for the boost related stuff be suspect? What direction should I be looking in?

I imagine it will be something fairly routine and obvious in retrospect, as everything has turned out to be this far. I'll let you know if I figure it out first

Thanks!
Matt

Skruyd · Post by **Skruyd** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:51 am

253.Asmo wrote: I've wired in the two boost sensors/solenoids

???? What two boost sensors/solenoids?????

code 35, just replace the canister purge solenoid or make sure it's plugged in first.

code 45, sorry man, but the ecu has to be replaced. You sure you swapped the ecu? The FSM shows the code for Non-turbo vehicles only, but may be the reason why the car just dies.

What years are the vehicles and which was NA and FI?Hope everything works out for yea man.

BSOD2600 · Post by **BSOD2600** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:20 am

Skruyd wrote:
253.Asmo wrote: I've wired in the two boost sensors/solenoids
code 45, sorry man, but the ecu has to be replaced. You sure you swapped the ecu? The FSM shows the code for Non-turbo vehicles only, but may be the reason why the car just dies

Whoah there. Code 45 is the "Pressure sensor and pressure exchange solenoid valve" on turbo cars. I actually just had that code last week a few days after swapping engines. Simple fix -- the new vacuum line I installed from the intake to the pressure sensor had slipped off and it was only reading atmosphere. Once connected, error/CEL went away and car ran well again.

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:45 pm

You haven't explained what you swapped.

What car did you start with? What did you swap over?

On a stock Legacy Turbo, neither of those codes is likely to have anything to do with the engine failing to run.

The first thing I would look at if I had an engine that was starting but dying almost immediately is the intake. A leak in the intake tubing or a disconnected hose might be the culprit. If you tell us more about what you swapped maybe I can give more specific advice.

Can you keep the engine running by manipulating the throttle?

253.Asmo · Post by **253.Asmo** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:29 pm

Yeah that is a legit code for turbo legacies. Positive the ecu is swapped, have another one around here somewhere if I need to check it.

Anyways, I'm swapping an EJ22T and 5spd (from my 91ss) into a 1990 N/A, auto legacy. I'm going to go back thru all the intake and vacuum lines, etc when I get home from work. Will post again...

edit:: and no, throttle modulation does not keep it running, sometimes it will start and die, other times it will run for a few seconds, stumbling, then die.

Skruyd · Post by **Skruyd** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:07 am

253.Asmo wrote: edit:: and no, throttle modulation does not keep it running, sometimes it will start and die, other times it will run for a few seconds, stumbling, then die.

Is the fuel lines hooked up right? you might have the return and supply swapped.

253.Asmo · Post by **253.Asmo** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:50 am

It would not entirely suprise me if they were

I know manifold side is right, which ones go where chassis side? I do get fuel pressure though...?

I'm going to check the timing tomorrow, I've done so much work I overlooked checking it after engine assembly when I put it on.

thanks!

BSOD2600 · Post by **BSOD2600** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:51 am

Maybe this pic will give you an idea where things go...

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:11 pm

Ah, okay.

If you have the fuel plumbing wrong you might also be measuring fuel pressure at the wrong place. What number do you get when you measure primed pressure? What about when the engine is trying to run?

253.Asmo · Post by **253.Asmo** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:43 am

No, I believe my fuel lines are hooked up correctly. Only connections I wasn't sure of were on the chassis side. The top most line is return, and the bottom line is supply correct?

I haven't measured fuel pressure, our cars don't have a test valve in the fuel system do they? Even if this isn't the issue, I'd like to know how to do this for future reference. Anyone ever place a permanent fuel pressure gauge inline, like those little ghey ones you see at schucks? Could be useful I'd imagine.

I had my compression tester stuck in the number 3 cylinder last night, almost broke down and threw a fit, I was so upset!!! It looked like it threaded itself on to a left behind washer from an old spark plug, motherf*cker. Finally got it out, and decided I needed a break for a day, before I snapped.

I think there's a really good chance it could be the timing belt, because I have fuel (I can smell it on plugs when I pulled them), spark and compression. I will check it tomorrow, maybe I'll get lucky

Matt

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:10 pm

Why do you keep repeating that you have fuel pressure if you haven't measured fuel pressure?

You have fuel. You don't know how pressurized it is. This could be a failing fuel pump. Might be worth looking at.

It doesn't matter whether the fuel lines are hooked up correctly on the engine if they're not hooked up correctly on the car -- the end result is still the same.

If you're talking about the order the pipes appear in the engine bay, I believe you're right -- the top one is fuel return, the middle one is evaporated fumes, and the bottom one is fuel supply. You can verify it's working right by measuring fuel pressure.

I use a cheap tire pressure gauge to measure my fuel pressure. I believe it was this one: http://www.idealtruevalue.com/servlet/the-32242/Detail

It turned out that the tire chuck could be unthreaded and underneath was a male 1/8" NPT thread. So I threaded it into a 1/8" pipe tee (with Teflon tape) and put 5/16" hose barbs on the other ends with maybe 8 inches of 5/16" fuel injection hose clamped onto on each. That whole assembly then replaced the hose going from the filter to the pipe on the intake manifold (there is no test fitting, like you say).

It was neat; I felt a little like McGuyver assembling this all in the aisle at Advance Auto Parts. It was pretty cheap, too -- way cheaper than a proper fuel injection tester. I know a tire pressure gauge probably isn't rated to handle gasoline, but it seems to me that all the parts exposed to fuel are made of brass (the body) or copper (the Bourdon tube), which ought to be okay. Certainly works for me. I keep a fire extinguisher handy at all times, of course.

After the priming pulse (when the ECU runs the pump for a few seconds after you turn the ignition switch on but don't start the engine), you should measure about 36 psi. If the engine is able to maintain idle speed for even a second or two, you should see fuel pressure drop to the mid-to-low 20s during that time.

If your compression numbers are good, it probably isn't the timing belt. Right? Or do you think your cams are off by a full crankshaft revolution, messing up the sequential fuel injection? I don't think that would keep the engine from running.

253.Asmo · Post by **253.Asmo** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 5:08 am

Sorry for the failure of verbage, you're right. Swapped the fuel pump out with the one from my old SS. So I must have had some fuel problem, now it will start and run. It runs like shit, dies sometimes, definitely dies with throttle manipulation. More air killing it makes me think it's still an intake leak somewhere post maf, I just haven't found anything at all..

Pulled timing covers off, timing belt is good. None of the marks would line up if the cams were off by 180 deg correct?

Going to find a working multimeter to test for stuck injector. What should resistance measue through stock turbo injectors. Never had to test injectors before.

Still trying to go thru and figure this shit out, frusturating sometimes. Swapped ecu out, no change.

Matt

Skruyd · Post by **Skruyd** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 7:24 am

^^ I guess the third times a charm? ^^ Just joking

If you want to test for a stuck injector. Take a 9v battery and put two wires on it. Hold one wire on to the injector terminal and tap the other one on to the other terminal. You should be able to here it click. If not, then it's sticking or dead.

I was wondering if the motor was working before you did the swap?

Also this may not help but can I get a picture of your setup. Just would like to see what I'm tinkering with

EDIT: When you did the timing belt. You did it by the notches right? Not the arrows? The arrows are supposed to represent piston position mark.

253.Asmo · Post by **253.Asmo** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 7:50 am

Engine was in a wrecked car, it ran. Pulled, rebuilt (except pistons, heads, lower mileage crank, rods)

Yeah, timing belt is right.

I'll get some pictures up when they're done copying.

I think I need to check my wiring for cam, crank sensors, what else is suspect?

253.Asmo · Post by **253.Asmo** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:18 am

ghetto not finished intake. havent been driving, need it to work in interim.

so close, so close...

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:34 pm

Hmm... can you quickly explain or take pictures of both your IAC valve plumbing and your blowoff valve (or bypass valve) installation and plumbing? I don't see enough fittings on the low-pressure side of the intake.

253.Asmo · Post by **253.Asmo** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 1:29 am

IAC is routed through that bastard lookin hose going back into intake. Other two fittings are for (1 ) rear crank breather/pcv valve and (2) two rear breathers from heads.

Hose from charc canister was jammed into the rubber elbow post maf. Blowoff valve is attached to intercooler with a vacuum line from the stock bpv manifold vacuum location to the nipple on top of the blowoff valve. For reference its a turboxs atmospheric valve

Grabbed a multimeter and am going to start checking shit whenever I make it home. Stuck injector possibly? I measure resistance thru them correct?

M

douglas vincent · Post by **douglas vincent** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 2:25 am

I could be wrong (Vicash?) but are not some of the wires to the ECU backwards when comparing the NA to Turbo ecu?

Look at this pinout.

http://www.vincentfurniture.com/photos/ ... legacy.doc

Notice that some of the pinouts are marked (T) and are seemingly backwards?

253.Asmo · Post by **253.Asmo** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 7:45 pm

Yes there are some wiring differences. I have a spreadsheet with about 5 or 6 different engine ECU pinouts. Cam and crank angle sensors are swapped, and a few other things. I'll try and upload the file somewhere.

EDIT: Can anyone post a link to a FSM or the specifics to test the cam and crank sensors, as well as the pressure sensor? I want to check the wiring I've done.

253.Asmo · Post by **253.Asmo** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:54 am

Update:
Engine runs, kicks on a CEL (once or twice it ran for awhile w/no CEL,) if not right away, fairly soon after startup. Idle will fluctuate at times, then seems to idle down towards 600-700rpm when temperature starts to come up. Somewhat steady idle... mostly.

Went ahead and pulled all codes, i believe some of these are old and I have addressed them, but in case:
13, 31, 34(?misread) 44, 49 (why wrong sensor??)

Wish I knew which one was kicking on CEL during operation. I'm rough at finding bad circuits.

Pulled the battery and the ecu overnight, so I will check again tomorrow after work, hopefully it'll clear codes and give me one or two.

Once idle stabilizes, vacuum pressure reads 16-18 in. Soon as throttle is applied engine bogs, misses, and will die if throttle stabbed..

So Far:
- swapped fuel pump from donor
- loose pins to map sensor, fouled spark plugs from no sensor reading
- accelerator cable out of whack, throttle now closes.
- cam and crank seem to have continuity, i'm no electrical guru ugh

Any help would be appreciated, thanks.

Matt

Post by **Legacy777** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 6:21 pm

Pull codes again after reset, verify codes are gone, and then re-read codes once CEL is displayed.

tturnpaw · Post by **tturnpaw** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:57 pm

shouldnt your throttle plate be closed at idle anyway?

253.Asmo · Post by **253.Asmo** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:26 am

Yeah, that's what the IAC is for right?

ECU would not clear codes, no matter what I did, batter and ecu unplugged over night. Swapped in the spare ecu I have, it had no codes stored. Started up, ran without CEL, hunting for idle, not real smooth.

Kicks code 44. Duty solenoid should not cause car to run like this, and I'm running wastegate boost to boot.

What gives? Seems like I have no pertinent codes to go off of.

What direction should I head in? Any help is greatly appreciated.

Matt

253.Asmo · Post by **253.Asmo** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:03 am

Dear LCBBS,

I'm really at guru stage, I've done a ton of work, and a lot of problem hunting, I'm a bit stumped still, and really don't want to start buying expensive new sensors for lack of any better direction to go in... shit.

How would I test the MAF sensor to ensure it is operating properly? Resistance values anywhere?

Could lacking some of the butterfly sealant inside the TB cause it to operate this poorly? I would guess it would affect idle, not on throttle ............ I'm a hell of a cleaner sometimes...

I tore out the turbo, headers and dropped the exhaust to get to the passenger cam support. I knew I should have resealed the heads, just because they were fine doesn't mean a seal can't go bad in the interim. Live and learn.

Going to forgo doing the front cam seals, just replaced the three o-rings in the rear. F*ck it.

I'm going to have taken this damn thing apart and put it back together again a hundred times here pretty soon!

Good mechanical practice, but no vroom whoosh vroom.

Sincerely.
'Stumped in Gig Harbor'

SLODRIVE · Post by **SLODRIVE** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:17 am

Try clearing any stored codes using the test connector method rather than the "battery dance", and then run it in D-check mode (after warming it up) if you can. See what codes come up then, if any.

http://www.surrealmirage.com/subaru/engine.html

Also, just wondering...did you physically swap the cam/crank sensors themselves, or did you swap the wires going to the ECU?

legacycentral bbs

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Rebuilt Turbo Swap/Initial Startup Problems - (gurus??)

Rebuilt Turbo Swap/Initial Startup Problems - (gurus??)

Re: Rebuilt Turbo Swap/Initial Startup Problems - (Codes, 35

Re: Rebuilt Turbo Swap/Initial Startup Problems - (Codes, 35