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DS1 Motorsports wrote:You should really see what the "cocktail" does to the inside of a trans.

I rebuild about 5-6 transmissions a week and can tell you this stuff is bad news to the internals of a 5mt.

If you have a grind while shifting try Subaru Extra-S fluid or Valvoline 75w90 synthetic before anything else.

If neither one of these fixes your issue you probably have a mechanical issue which no fluid is going to fix.

DS1 Motorsports wrote:Well you can tell pretty easily when you get a trans open by how the fluids will actually separate from the mixture. I usually ask my customers once I see this. The mix's exact % of which fluids is one variable that I see often, usually to the majority of shock proof or syncromesh.

The wear is pretty uniform through these transmissions even though the customers are a wide diversity of enthusiast from Auto-X to Drag and even stock cars. Most of them put it in after reading a variety of threads stating "smoother shifting, eliminates grinds, quieter operation"

The wear is seen on the cone surface of the gear and the matching face of the baulk ring. When these 2 surfaces wear excessively the friction needed to sustain the synchronizing action lessens and you start to get excessive wear on the cone surfaces and the alignment tabs on the out side of the baulk ring due to the slider on the hub now trying to engage the next gear with out it having been spun up to the proper speed to mesh smoothly.

As for the last ditch effort thing you are correct, the most common one of those is the broken 3rd gear double synchronizer. The guys will break it, then try everything possible to fix it without having the trans rebuilt.

Most of the transmissions I see are for either a blown gear or a syncro issue. I see the same wear on the syncros in both cases when the cocktail was used for a length of time.

DS1 Motorsports wrote:The shockproof really gels up in cold weather.

DS1 Motorsports wrote:Average mileage I saw wear with the cocktail was about 3-6k. The way the fluids separate inside the trans I honestly couldn't tell you that any amount of time is safe.

DS1 Motorsports wrote:I've been a technician for 15+ years now and have worked for Toyota, Honda, and Subaru and currently own my own Subaru shop for the last 5 years.

I've done Honda's for over 10 years and only run Honda MTF or NEO oil in them including my customer's 610whp 00' Si. The difference between Honda and Subaru is Honda uses coated brass baulk rings, Subaru doesn't. This is where synromesh does it's damage.

The high sulfur content in syncromesh eats brass (simple chemistry). As the brass erodes from the friction surface of the baulk ring, the load surface becomes smaller and smaller and wears faster and faster till finally failure occurs.

DS1 Motorsports wrote:The combination of fluids is something Subaru says specifically not to do in the 5mt. The syncromesh is bad for the brass baulk rings. The shockproof turns to jello in the cold and separates from the other oils in the cocktail.
Hypo C is old school oil and belongs in my dad's ford 9" rear end It doesn't hold up very well to high rpm use.

DS1 Motorsports wrote:The Hypoid-C has a different additive package, it will meet GL-5, but the friction modifiers in it are different than what Subaru uses. As for the Redline shockproof, I've literally had to scoop it out (like pudding) of a 6mt case when it was cold. The trans had been transported in the back of at truck to me the outside temp was about 3deg. F. and even in the time it took me to disassemble the case it was still like pudding.

DS1 Motorsports wrote:syncromesh is formulated for transmissions that use ATF or regular motor oil (GM,Ford,Honda,etc), it doesn't have the lubrication qualities that regular gear lube does. As for the stink, you should see what happens when they burn up

DS1 Motorsports wrote:I do spend most of my days with my hands stuck in broken 5mt's. The way I gauge the different effects fluids on transmissions is by noting the different wear characteristics on the individual parts and then comparing them to the other boxes I see running the same fluids. I see the same breakdown of the baulk rings in almost every trans I see running the cocktail. It's not a normal wear issue like I see in boxes running normal 75w90 oils. Some wear on these rings is normal and yes the higher the mileage the more wear occurs. The issue in the transmissions I see running the cocktail is the type of wear, it's not the normal even wear on the cones and rings. The wear in the cocktail transmissions always share a tapered wear towards the center of the cone and when I check the cone and baulk ring for straightness they show a taper on the lower and upper sections.

A few Facts for this discussion:

The ingredients of GM Syncromesh:
1) "Severely solvent refined, solvent de-waxed, heavy parafinnic petroleum distillates"
Normal English: This is the "semi-synthetic" base oil. It is likely a GIII hydrocracked mineral oil. This is a better base oil than Honda's MTF, That does not mean it is not a better tranny lube, however.

2) "Benzene, C10-16 alkyl derivatives"
Normal English: Known as Benzenesulfonic acid, It is a surfactant, here used I would imagine to keep parts clean; it may also act as a carrier for the other ingredients.

3) "Methacrylic acid, copolymer of 'methyl' and 'lauryl' esters"
Normal English: Here is used as an ester oil. This is the synthetic part of the formulation, and is chemically representative of esters in general; highest resistance to heat degeneration, high detergency.

4) "Sulfonic acids, petroleum, magnesium salts"
Normal English: These are the friction modifiers - they may also play a part in friction reduction. This is the major issue

5) "Hydrotreated heavy parafinnic petroleum disitillates"
Normal English: Similar to #1, but not as purified - less 'severe'; could be somewhere between a GII and GIII.

6) "Zinc alkyl dithiophosphate"
Normal English: The is the famous ZDP, these compounds represent the best anti-wear technology yet developed.

The differences between GL-4 and GL-5 from the API.

3.2 API GL-4
The designation API GL-4 denotes lubricants intended for
axles with spiral bevel gears operating under moderate to severe
conditions of speed and load or axles with hypoid (see
note)gears operating under moderate speeds and loads.
These oils may be used in selected manual transmission and
transaxle applications where MT-1 lubricants are unsuitable.

3.3 API GL-5
The designation API GL-5 denotes lubricants intended for
gears, particularly hypoid gears, in axles operating
under various combinations of high-speed/shock load and
low-speed/high-torque conditions.

The reason I am in here telling people what I see is because it cost my customers more money to rebuild their transmissions because of the cocktail.

DS1 Motorsports wrote:Motul makes good stuff but it's pricey.

I'm testing out the Amsoil right now in my manual.

I like the Valvoline because it's inexpensive and effetive.

DS1 Motorsports wrote:I thought we had finally put this mess to bed, the cocktail is bad mechanically in your Subaru 5mt and even worse in your 6mt.

The fluids mixed together to create it all have their advantages but when combined they create a lubrication nightmare inside your 5mt.

Myself and Andrewtech probably do more gear boxes combined than any other Subaru performance shop in the country. We don't run this stuff for a reason.

If you do choose to run it just keep in mind that it breaks down faster (aka fluid changes every 7-10k miles) causes excessive wear on baulk rings (aka more expensive rebuilds) and will eventually cause bearing failure because of the viscosity differences in the different fluids.

If you have a grind in your transmission and you are running the proper fluid (75w90w Valvoline, Amsoil, Motul, Subaru Extra-S) then you have a mechanical issue. You need to have it repaired properly. If you continue to drive on it no matter how the fluid "makes it feel" you are just causing more damage.

DS1 Motorsports wrote:what I'm saying is the cocktail doesn't "fix" anything it just hides the underlying problem till it becomes catastrophic.

DS1 Motorsports wrote:extending the "usable life" of your transmission by using the cocktail will cost you double the normal repair bill on the back side so either way you pay.

There isn't a 4th gear issue, there is a 3rd gear syncro design flaw. The breakage of the center cone in the 3rd gear syncro pushes on the 3-4 hub causing 4th gear not to be able to engage properly. The cocktail doesn't fix anything it just covers up a severe parts failure.

DS1 Motorsports wrote:There is no fix for the design flaw, unless someone wants to start machining billet steel center cones.

DS1 Motorsports wrote:There is no fix for the flaw in the 3rd gear syncro unless one of our great machinist here on the NASIOC wants to start making billet center rings for them

PPG just replaces the double coned unit with a standard baulk ring to avoid the issue.

DS1 Motorsports wrote:I have noticed lately (month of June) (about 3 of the 4 boxes disassembled this week) that have had Shock proof in them have had a build up of the pudding I'm used to seeing only in cold weather.

It gathers on the inside of the out put shaft where the front pinion is housed and in the transfer case section under where 5th gear resides.

I'm going to start keeping a log of the boxes I disassemble to see if I can track specific part failures to certain fluids.

DS1 Motorsports wrote:The cocktail is band aid over a bullet wound

Adam West wrote:It wouldn't even have to BE oil that you sold them! <grin>

Adam West wrote:Uh, don't you think this would be mixed in the mixer? i.e. the tranny? If not, why not...