Cash for Clunkers

[Redneck Wolf]

Seems kinda sad, that this is the fate of so many cars.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waj2KrKYTZo

[gijonas]

Yeah,all in the name of the environment?? why has my country become a piece of shit?

That little episode is probably more damaging than the efficiency difference of its replacement.

[evolutionmovement]

It's about money—don't let that environment BS fool you. How is it more economical to go from a car that's environmental manufacturing debt has been paid to one that gets only a few mpgs more and recently manufactured with all the extra BS systems they put in cars today? A car that will be prohibitively expensive to run with all its gadgets in 10-12 years? I'm restoring the wagon so that it will last me another 20 years. The Mazda will likely be in a junk yard a few years after I sell it. I'll give that new cars are getting more recyclable, but you know what's good recycling? NOT FUCKING CRUSHING A CAR WITH STILL-USEABLE PARTS! Disgusting waste.

Yes, there are lots of toilets out there that are little use to their owners, but the people driving the real shit boxes can't afford a new car, $4500 off or not. With the drop in used car price, were my Mazda to have an extra 2 years' depreciation (like that Volvo), it would probably make sense for me to do the same thing. Not that I would—I stand by my beliefs. I've nearly starved to death and I'm a pragmatist so unnecessary waste (of any kind) is a sin in my book.

[PhyrraM]

To top it all off, I bet that eventual history will prove that many cars turned in to be "destroyed" in the Cash for Clunkers program will actually end up back on the road, "polluting" for a good many more years. Possibly in other countries, but on the road none-the-less.

The junkyards and recyclers will have a hard time saying no to the easy buck a VIN wash and resell could provide.

[gijonas]

^good i hope so.

[Airgne]

that is a waitse. thank you to all the ppl that voted for
O ne
B ig
A ss
M istake
A merica

[gijonas]

Yeah,cuz with the maverick and the turbo retard chick pushing the buttons we'd be allright.Fact is we are going to shit and it has little to do with which face we see in the paper on the day after voting,its just a matter of which kinds of things you want to see get fucked up first.With Obama it just happens to be this kind of thing for starters.

[kimokalihi]

Ron Paul.

[Binford]

To top it all off, I bet that eventual history will prove that many cars turned in to be "destroyed" in the Cash for Clunkers program will actually end up back on the road, "polluting" for a good many more years. Possibly in other countries, but on the road none-the-less.

The junkyards and recyclers will have a hard time saying no to the easy buck a VIN wash and resell could provide.

Nope, not gonna happen. They MUST destroy the engine with Sodium Silicate in the crankcase instead of oil.

[PhyrraM]

Yep. That's the way the the bill is writen. Do you honestly think that's how it's going to be policed?

Those cars will end up in the most profitable place. For some that will be scrap, for many that will be as resale someplace. Paperwork just needs to be fudged. History has proven that the will be little funds for physical enforcement.

To top it all off, I bet that eventual history will prove that many cars turned in to be "destroyed" in the Cash for Clunkers program will actually end up back on the road, "polluting" for a good many more years. Possibly in other countries, but on the road none-the-less.

The junkyards and recyclers will have a hard time saying no to the easy buck a VIN wash and resell could provide.

Nope, not gonna happen. They MUST destroy the engine with Sodium Silicate in the crankcase instead of oil.

[Aerotech]

In case anyone cares, the Legacy Turbo 4EAT qualifies, at 18mpg.
The Legacy Turbo 5MT, at 19mpg, does not.

Nice hair-splitting, there... None of the n/a cars qualifies, all too good on gas.

[evolutionmovement]

If they're anything as good as the insurance companies, very few will probably not be scrapped. Is it really worthwhile anyway to swap VINs on a car someone obviously thought was worth $4500 or less in a depressed market? Sounds like a lot of risk for minimal payoff.

Along similar lines of disgust, there was a shipment of cars from Mazda a year or so ago on a container ship that partially capsized. All the cars were written off, but a salvage crew righted the ship and many cars turned out to be fine. But because the insurance company already paid out and the cars sat around for months while the morons figured out what to do, they scrapped everything. Even the wheels had to be cut with a band saw (which would require new blades, also waste) to ensure they wouldn't be reused. I can understand worrying about the warranty liability on selling those cars intact, but to destroy so many useable parts is a disgusting waste.

[93forestpearl]

I find it hilarious how people bitch yet offer no solutions. Typical America.

[kimokalihi]

Solution - Electric cars and the honda ruckus.

Anti-solutions:
Cash for clunkers
Hybrids
E-85 Fuel
Hummers
Car Pool Lane

[gijonas]

I find it hilarious how people bitch yet offer no solutions. Typical America.

Probably because citizen oppinions dont amount to shitballs.Nobody listens to you unless you have anthrax or oil.

[evolutionmovement]

Yeah, picture a peasant in the fields of feudal Europe offering farming efficiency tips to the land owner. Besides unless you believe the BS line about it reducing dependence on foreign oil, this isn't a solution to a problem, so there's no alternative to offer other than not doing it. Producing a new car uses oil. A couple mpg difference between that and a potentially more reliable used car who's production debt has been paid is a terrible "solution". Then there's the waste of discarding useable parts that could keep other older cars running longer. Instead, it leads to the earlier demise of an otherwise OK car that isn't involved in the Cars For Cash deal or the waste of new parts having to be produced (consuming more oil) where the old discarded ones would have done the job. What it really is is a gift to the suffering car dealers and manufacturers. Fine, but sell it as what it is and don't waste further in the process. I have no problem with the real junkers going away, but there's a disincentive for that (the cars have to have been registered for over a year and running, which might skirt people dragging in worthless crap and taking advantage, but isn't the point to take polluting gas guzzlers off the road and sell new cars?), and with the market value drop in used cars, truly useable, serviceable vehicles are now in target range of the $4500s. I would have less trouble if the difference in mileage between old and new was substantial. But then, new car gas mileage is generally little better than older cars. Thank the government again for all the pussy mandated safety gear.

Went to the Italian car show today and my 9 year-old nephew saw the intelligence in the design of an OSCA race car with its small engine and light, simple build. Sure kids don't care about safety and I sure as hell would prefer a car that isn't so flammable in an impact, but why is there no reasonable compromise? The government doesn't allow the choice unless you build your own. Thankfully, they allow me to pursue that option, but unfortunately, it's an impractical option open to few.

[Legacy777]

[entirelyturbo]

That Randy Harless guy who declared himself sovereign last year, insisting that the US government had no authority over him whatsoever, much to the ridicule of virtually all the rest of America....

... I wanna be like him.

I dunno if this Cash for Clunkers thing is part of Obama's behind-the-scenes negotiations with the automakers he bailed out, but the basic premise is most definitely socialist/communist (remove all operations and symbols of the previous 'regime' and implement new ones until no one remembers what the old ones were).

gijonas, yes, we'd be a LOT better off with McCain and Palin, even if McCain would die before he finished his term and Palin can see Russia from her house. At least they wouldn't be trying to casually swoon us into universal healthcare and national disarmament.

I'd rather have an incompetent (and incontinent) administration that would cause the government to shrink down to a proper size and let the few remaining American entrepreneurs fix this mess simply by virtue of their desire to succeed.

[evolutionmovement]

Yes, we need more robber barons. Why do people only want to throw the pendulum from one side to the other?

[gijonas]

Yes, we need more robber barons. Why do people only want to throw the pendulum from one side to the other?

My thoughts exactly.

[entirelyturbo]

Does a clock work if its pendulum is stationary?

[fishbone79]

Yes, we need more robber barons. Why do people only want to throw the pendulum from one side to the other?

Eventually, if the frequency of the oscillation becomes high enough, the error will multiply critically, and the motion will be arrested by turbulent dissolution. The problem is, the system is too divided to ever become stochastic, so we'll have to rely on a revolution rather than stochastic resonance to get out of this mess.

Mr. Obama duped the masses into believing that he might provide revolution - disguised as 'change' - to government (an ultimate oxymoron). We see how that's working out.

I'm not sure we don't have modern robber barons, but that sort of thing is more and more difficult to achieve with today's red, mushy, overripe U.S. government. Plus, we don't make anything and our banks are dissolving, so I'd wager the majority of the global population of modern robber barons are Chinese... Ironic they are the reddest of them all, eh?

[gijonas]

The bigger they are,the harder they fall.As with all great civilizations we will dissolve as well as our banks.None of us likes the idea but we all should get used to it,maybe not in our generation but possibly.

And no,we havnt come too far to fail.It seems as though administrations of the past have burned all the bridges we once had to the outside world,and now we have one that will make the rest collapse from within.So sad.

[evolutionmovement]

Rome lasted about 1000 years and suffered centuries of inept leadership you couldn't get if you loosed helmet-kids on the White House. I suppose the pace of everything works in fast forward, but I can't help feeling we're in the 5th Century AD. From here, we're looking at another Dark Ages or a global government.

Fundamentalism does nobody but a very few any good, and still not as good as a more stable society, and whether it's on the left or the right, the result is nearly the same. People seem to be of either or persuasion, except for me apparently, which may serve to offset the other side, but two equal sides pushing each other like rams leaves little energy for the compromise necessary for a workable system. I think it's a lack of progress that sees us here, which is my biggest problem with people. I guess the problem with any system of government is that it is run by humans.

[entirelyturbo]

Your premise of a 'stable' society where everyone works together instead of against each other is just as ideological and fundamental as the survival-of-the-fittest society, Steve. It puts an uncanny amount of faith in the human condition.

Any utopia that has ever existed, either in fictional prose or in real life, never lasts. It always comes crashing down. The timetables may vary, but the end result is always the same. Why? A few different reasons. Someone tries to establish themselves as a leader, and someone else always tries to dethrone him. Everyone else either falls into a lazy cycle of simultaneously losing the desire to keep the system going and bemoaning the demise of the system, or they get bored and destroy it solely for a cheap thrill.

Before long, the delicate fabric that held the microcosmic society together unravels.

Entropy: all things in nature tend toward chaos and disorder.

I'm at work and can't continue on all day. I probably won't participate in these discussions anymore anyway, as I've repeated my thoughts and beliefs several times, and to continue doing so is unproductive and a waste of time.

My far-fetched ideology is that we stray away from the socialist regimen we're following now, and that we go back to capitalism, where people are rewarded for their successes and punished for their failures. Not the other way around.

I don't know if it will happen or not, and if it does, I don't know how long it will last. But the hope that it does is the only thing that gets me out of bed in the morning.