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 Post subject: Re: Introduction of a siberian subarist
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:40 am 
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Posts: 67
Location: Barnaul, Russia
According to voltage and resistance test I have problem with ignition coil and throttle sensor, and probably O2 sensor?

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 Post subject: Re: Introduction of a siberian subarist
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:47 am 
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Stan,

From your video it looks like pulling the injector electriccal connectors off does affect idle, so I'd say the injectors are working. Are you absolutely sure the injectors are seated properly in the fuel rails? When you put them in do they eventually "snap" into place and then can't be easily removed? Are you using vasoline or similar on the o-rings when installing them?

Your fuel mileage is very poor so something has to be wrong.

From your tests above,

Here are some things that caught my eye if you can provide some feedback on them, that would be great.

For the voltage test, No 13 to body, you have ??? What does this mean?


On the airflow meter tests where it says to test the resistance between the air flow sensor connector & body. Pins 1, 4, & 2 should have 1 mega ohm minimum, while number 3 should have 0 ohms. You list 1 for all of these, did you get 1 mega ohm or higher for all four pins on the MAF sensor connector?


For the throttle sensor resistance tests you list 10 for both closed and open, is this correct and are the units kilo ohms?

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 Post subject: Re: Introduction of a siberian subarist
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:49 am 
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stan31337 wrote:
According to voltage and resistance test I have problem with ignition coil and throttle sensor, and probably O2 sensor?


Your ignition coil may be outside of the specification range, and same with the O2 sensor. I don't think a bad O2 sensor would be causing this much drivability problems. A bad ignition coil could cause this much issue, but there were a few other things I mentioned in my post above I'd suggest clarifying/checking further.

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 Post subject: Re: Introduction of a siberian subarist
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:01 am 
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Location: Barnaul, Russia
Quote:
Are you absolutely sure the injectors are seated properly in the fuel rails? When you put them in do they eventually "snap" into place and then can't be easily removed? Are you using vasoline or similar on the o-rings when installing them?

Yes they sit perfectly, I used motor oil for lubrication of o-rings when installing them, and tightened bolts one side a bit and another a bit, step by step without tightening one side completely first then another.

Quote:
Your fuel mileage is very poor so something has to be wrong.

Yesterday I went to service guy, and he cleaned my injectors with ultrasonic equipment. Now I'm afraid it's really bad for them, as I read about that online... But after all the acceleration got better, maybe the new high-octane gasoline with additions does it's job... Still the fuel mileage is very poor, that's true...

Quote:
For the voltage test, No 13 to body, you have ??? What does this mean?

It means that there was nothing, probably because the contact was bad... I used needle to stick near the wire, probably it didn't get through the isolation... I think I should restest it again...

Quote:
On the airflow meter tests where it says to test the resistance between the air flow sensor connector & body. Pins 1, 4, & 2 should have 1 mega ohm minimum, while number 3 should have 0 ohms. You list 1 for all of these, did you get 1 mega ohm or higher for all four pins on the MAF sensor connector?

Yes, all of them shown 1 megaohm...

Quote:
For the throttle sensor resistance tests you list 10 for both closed and open, is this correct and are the units kilo ohms?

Yes, correct. When I was opening the throttle - display shown 9.99 kOhms for a second, then returned to 10, even on the fully open throttle... That's bad, for sure... Could it be the problem? Even that the voltage is OK, and was changing?

Are there some critical connectors I must test? I know I skipped a lot of them, because it was hard to get to the ECU...

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 Post subject: Re: Introduction of a siberian subarist
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:57 pm 
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Location: Barnaul, Russia
Today I tried to change MAF back to the new again, as soon as I started the engine - it began to shake like it's going to die right away. Revs were around 600 rpm. So I had to switch back to the old one...

Then I disconnected O2 sensor, I hope this will help me as a temporary solution... After all things I've done it looks like the fuel consumption raises...

I'll try to remeasure the fuel consumption without O2 sensor... I don't know what to do next...

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 Post subject: Re: Introduction of a siberian subarist
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:35 pm 
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stan31337 wrote:
Yes they sit perfectly, I used motor oil for lubrication of o-rings when installing them, and tightened bolts one side a bit and another a bit, step by step without tightening one side completely first then another.


The fuel injectors need to be pressed and snapped into the fuel rails BEFORE you tighten the injector caps. If you remove the injector caps are the injectors easy to remove?


stan31337 wrote:
Yesterday I went to service guy, and he cleaned my injectors with ultrasonic equipment. Now I'm afraid it's really bad for them, as I read about that online... But after all the acceleration got better, maybe the new high-octane gasoline with additions does it's job... Still the fuel mileage is very poor, that's true...


The injectors should be fine with the ultrasonic cleaning.


stan31337 wrote:
Yes, all of them shown 1 megaohm...


I don't think it should be an issue with pin #3 showing 1 megaohm. It is essentually a ground for the MAF identification circuit; but I don't think your car has that. Here's a diagram to show what I'm talking about.

http://main.experiencetherave.com/subar ... sting1.jpg


stan31337 wrote:
Yes, correct. When I was opening the throttle - display shown 9.99 kOhms for a second, then returned to 10, even on the fully open throttle... That's bad, for sure... Could it be the problem? Even that the voltage is OK, and was changing?


Did you leave the throttle held open for a little while while testing the resistance? Sometimes it won't change immediately. If the voltage is showing ok, the TPS is probably ok. Did your manual have this information regarding adjusting/setting the idle switch?

http://main.experiencetherave.com/subar ... sting3.jpg


stan31337 wrote:
Are there some critical connectors I must test? I know I skipped a lot of them, because it was hard to get to the ECU...


If you're following the diagnostic information in the factory service manual you should be ok.

I think we need to go back to the basics. The symptom is the car is not running that well and has excessive fuel consumption.

Some of the causes for that could be:

  1. Injectors are not seated properly and over fueling
  2. MAF sensor is telling the ECU there is more air coming into the engine then actually is and the ECU is adding too much fuel
  3. Coolant temp sensor is telling the ECU the incorrect engine temp and is causing the ECU to add more fuel
  4. The injectors are not the correct injectors for the engine/ECU
  5. The ECU is not the correct ECU for the car/engine

Your fuel consumption is very bad. I would expect to see at least double that out of a normally working Legacy with a 2.2 liter engine. Due to the excessive fuel consumption and if we look at the list above I would probably move # 2 & 3 down the list of possible causes or completely eliminate them all together. I think either having the wrong injectors or ECU combination or the injectors not seated/sealing properly could cause a very large reduction in fuel mileage. So I would focus my attention to those things.

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 Post subject: Re: Introduction of a siberian subarist
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:16 pm 
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Location: Barnaul, Russia
OK, I got it... Thank you very much! I think I'll try to buy one new injector.

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 Post subject: Re: Introduction of a siberian subarist
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:07 am 
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Again, I would recommend verifying that the injectors are seated properly first before spending any more money. They are a pain to install and remove and MUST snap into place before putting the cap on.

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 Post subject: Re: Introduction of a siberian subarist
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:28 pm 
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Location: Barnaul, Russia
Last time injectors were installed by serviceman who cleaned them... So hell knows, whether they are installed correctly or not...

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 Post subject: Re: Introduction of a siberian subarist
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:55 pm 
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Today I was finally able to get errors in self-check D-mode!!! And it's amazing... I have 47 - AT Economy switch! Could it be a problem of such a high fuel consumption?

I'll try to measure resistance and voltage of it tomorrow.

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 Post subject: Re: Introduction of a siberian subarist
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:37 pm 
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stan31337 wrote:
I have 47 - AT Economy switch! Could it be a problem of such a high fuel consumption?

I don't think just an AT econ. switch would cause such a consumption you get. Does the switch work at all, I mean it lights up and changes the AT shift points?

But listen: I see there are more problems and maybe all of them sum up.

Your O2 sensor gives weird readings 0.1-0.5 V. Am I right it shows the engine is running lean? With this consumption and black sooth from exhaust it should show running reach, maybe it thinks you're running lean and causes ECU to overfuel?

The next thing is the missing MAF connector ground at pin 3. Our Legacys didn't have the option of different MAF types, so maybe the grounding here is significant for correct MAF working? At least the FSM bible expects 0 Ohm here.

Next case: who knows if the injectors are working right?

And I would raise the question: was the engine and AT swap done right? Swapping the EJ18 with EJ22 isn't just plug and play, you need to swap also the engine harness and here was the transmission swap as well, so another wiring involved. Throwing the error code for the economy switch arouses suspicion if everything is connected. Hopefully it's just the switch, check the resistance.

I'm talking about the swap because I remember a similiar topic on the Polish Subaru forum. Someone swapped the EJ18->EJ22 and the car was not driveable: no performance, huge fuel consumption etc. he had a lot of issues.

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 Post subject: Re: Introduction of a siberian subarist
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:37 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:14 am
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Location: Barnaul, Russia
I disconnected AT econo switch and checked it. The bulb inside was dead, totally black. I cleaned the contacts a little bit and checked resistance. It was OK. Then I went to check the voltage - it shown 6.45!!! Although I didn't check voltage on the ECU itself, only at the AT econo connector side.
I don't know if it was a swap, actually I don't believe it. I think the body number is showing the wrong info, but who knows...
Yes, O2 sensor shows lowest voltage. Maybe I installed the wrong O2 sensor...
I guess I should have to recheck wiring, harness, and all the things I've skipped.

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 Post subject: Re: Introduction of a siberian subarist
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:11 pm 
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Location: Barnaul, Russia
Today I've finally found some time to make live tests of O2 sensor and MAF.
Here are the live readings from O2 sensor:
http://youtu.be/5SKLUjSAr7g

and MAF sensor:
http://youtu.be/k8B3P81PhzA

Videos taken while driving around the neighboorhood...

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 Post subject: Re: Introduction of a siberian subarist
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:22 pm 
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Location: Barnaul, Russia
I went to local auto-electricity store and bought little bulbs. Installed one bulb into AT Eco switch, and now voltage shows 10 V. It's better and closer to 12V. Also I've checked resistances, wire that goes to AT Eco switch seems to be OK.
Then I've made a D-self-check again - CHECK ENGINE blinks "No Problems"

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 Post subject: Re: Introduction of a siberian subarist
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:28 am 
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Your O2 sensor voltages are above .45v which indicate the engine is running rich. If it's running very rich all the time, you may not see the dithering voltage between .1 & .9 like is normal.

There's obviously too much fuel going into the combustion chamber, but based on the info it's hard to say what are symptoms and what are the actual cause. As Ben pointed out. There may be underlying issues with the swap. You could try grounding pin 3 of the MAF sensor to see if that makes any difference. However, since the d-check mode is showing no codes, that kind of leads me to believe there is a mechanical issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Introduction of a siberian subarist
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:55 pm 
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I think problem IS actually with injectors. Remember I wrote that first cylinder plug is the only one that's normal. Well there is a white-top injector installed. The one which is probably original. Others were covered with black dust, there are gray-top injectors installed. And one of them with a missing sprayer or what's the english word for that thing.
I think I've found a set of 4 injectors in Novosibirsk, nearest largest city (Siberian Moscow) ;)) The cost is about $110 for a set.

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 Post subject: Re: Introduction of a siberian subarist
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:06 pm 
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Legacy777 wrote:
However, since the d-check mode is showing no codes, that kind of leads me to believe there is a mechanical issue.

How do you call a total repair of engine in US? It might be that case... Well if injectors won't help, I guess I'll have to start keeping money for a "capital repair of engine"...
How difficult is that with Full Service Manual for a newbie? I mean completely change piston ring set, bearing set-crankshaft, check/replace hydraulic-lash adjusters and valves, all gaskets, seals and O-rings, water and oil pumps, and timing belt? I know it's expensive, and time consuming, but I'm freaking interested to get into the engine... It's like recompiling the kernel in Linux, except in Linux everything is totally free :))))

Today my Subaru has a birthday! She is 22 now, I hope she will live a long healthy life and finally makes her way to the vegetarian diet =))))

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Last edited by stan31337 on Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Introduction of a siberian subarist
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:29 pm 
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It's called rebuilding the engine. But from you're compression numbers it shouldn't be necessary and it will be quite expensive. A lot more expensive than a new matching set of injectors if you're convinced that's the problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Introduction of a siberian subarist
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 6:12 pm 
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stan31337 wrote:
I think problem IS actually with injectors. Remember I wrote that first cylinder plug is the only one that's normal. Well there is a white-top injector installed. The one which is probably original. Others were covered with black dust, there are gray-top injectors installed. And one of them with a missing sprayer or what's the english word for that thing.
I think I've found a set of 4 injectors in Novosibirsk, nearest largest city (Siberian Moscow) ;)) The cost is about $110 for a set.



Yeah, I think you're on the right track with replacing all four injectors with good known working ones.

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 Post subject: Re: Introduction of a siberian subarist
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 6:13 pm 
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I agree with Kimo, I don't think you need an engine rebuild based on the compression numbers. Start with the new injectors and see how things run.

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 Post subject: Re: Introduction of a siberian subarist
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:15 am 
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Damn... Interesting things I've found today... Well I have one JECS 0R00 injector and three 0R05 injectors... And guess what?

JECS 0R00 (265cc) atmo (light-gray cap)
JECS 0R05 (440cc) turbo (dark-gray cap)

Here's the problem... Is it possible to aquire used 0R00 in US? Because according to the forums many people in Russia are searching for them without any luck... And I asked that guy from Novosibirsk to send me a photo of one injector... And damn, it has a dark-gray cap... I'm frustrated! :(

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 Post subject: Re: Introduction of a siberian subarist
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 3:26 pm 
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That coule be your problem. I don't know what the non-turbo injectors are here but if they're both ej22 I'd think they would be and there's tons of them in the junkyards.

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 Post subject: Re: Introduction of a siberian subarist
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:08 pm 
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Location: Barnaul, Russia
I have two options:
One perfectly new injector per month - $150 or a set of Remanufactured injectors for $350 from Fiveomotorsport website. I don't believe though that they will return me $100 when my old injectors reach them by mail, because Russian Post Service is such a mess...

Find a set of injectors on a junkyard, well in Russia there are thousands of people write on forums: "I need 16611AA090 (JECS 0R00)..." instead of "I offer..." that's bad... During the day I was unable to find them calling around all junkyards in my city, and surfing through the forums...

If I will be replacing one injector per month will it be fine for new injectors, won't they get messed up working with wrong ones? I want to stick to this option, because it's more affordable instead of $350 at one time for remanufactured ones... And I will be able to measure fuel consumption changes :))

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 Post subject: Re: Introduction of a siberian subarist
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:26 pm 
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That is definitely your problem, you have three injectors that are not the correct injectors. The non-turbo Legacy injectors in the US are 270 cc/min injectors. The actual injector flow rate will vary a little bit, but that's normal. Here is a test sheet for a set that I was running when I was non-turbo.

http://main.experiencetherave.com/subar ... orcalb.jpg

The red ones in this picture are the ones tested in that calibration sheet.

http://main.experiencetherave.com/subar ... P_6647.JPG


Stan,

Do your injectors look like this?

http://main.experiencetherave.com/subar ... injectors/

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 Post subject: Re: Introduction of a siberian subarist
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:33 pm 
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Ok, I looked in the parts book, and the injectors you need (16611AA090) are found in the North American 90-91 non-turbo Legacy with an automatic transmission. For the 90-91 model years the automatic and manual transmission cars had different injectors.

Here is my suggestion, I would suggest posting in the parts shed to see if someone has or can easily get a hold of a complete set of these injectors for you, and see if they are willing to ship them to you in Russia.

I know I damaged one of the caps on the four that I removed, but the other three may be ok, I'd need to check. If you strike out in finding anyone willing to ship them to you, shoot me a PM and I might be able to work something out for you.

I'll try and take a look at the injectors pictured above to see how the other three are and will report back.

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1997 Impreza OBS

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