Thinking of making an investment

[magicmike]

I have been thinking about buying some land up in maine and making a small rally-x course. It would be somewhere that I could rent out to car clubs and such but I dont know anything about how this stuff works. I dont think it would take too much get this done except for the cost of the land. Being on the east coast here there arent any places to go, especially in rhode island. What are your thoughts on this? Excluding the cost for the land I think I could get a course laid out for less than 5k. I just need to maybe rent a dozer and clear a path through trees or what have you. other than the "fun" factor for myself could this be a profitable investment?

[rallysam]

Sounds like a blast. I mean, rallycross rental fees are going to be pocket change compared to the cost of the investment, but at $600-$1200 per event it could at least cover some upkeep and taxes and stuff. The only real return on investment will be when you sell the land some day for hopefully a lot more than you bought it.

You won't be able to run a rallycross course through the trees or rocks. There needs to be a ton of run-off space into grass and weeds. If there's anything to hit, then only caged cars will be able to run - and that's hardly anybody. Most venues are a big field of mowed grass with the course defined by cones and changed throughout the day. Or, it's a meadow of waist-high weeds that with the course bushwacked through it. Either way, you'll need to bushwhack it at least a couple times a season.

You definitely want lots of space between the rallycross course and anybody else's property. Some landowners I know who host rallycrosses have stress with their neighbors about the noise the stifling dust clouds. Make sure the locals aren't too uptight and try to keep a low profile. If racing isnt' already against the local ordinances, it coule become that way if you don't keep a low profile.

Drainage is nice or else you'll have to cancel events. You'll need portapotties. You'll need seperate areas for the paddock and for the racing. If there are no towns near by, you can also consider letting people camp out and making money off of selling hot dogs during the event.

Visibility of the whole course from one location is important for safety reasons. A hill with a view of the course is great for spectators... and giving spectators a good show will encourage more people to come out.

Do you rallycross in the NER already? You can talk to Scott Beliveau about how much demand there is for more venues and more events.... and just general advice stuff.

Good luck!!!

[evolutionmovement]

I'd be concerned with liability, but it may not be bad cost-wise if that's a resolvable issue. I'd love a place to go myself. All I have is New England Dragway and Limerock (2.5 hrs. away and you have to belong to a club that's renting the track to run there).

Hell, I'd just get a beater Legacy and trash it up there. Land is definitely cheap and labor will probably not be bad either. Maine people seem the type to be tolerant of that kind of thing, too, unless you're in an uppity area, but that would be more expensive anyway.

If you're serious, put together a business plan and I'd be willing to invest(though probably not until next year).

I don't see how you could lose much at all if this can be done relatively cheap even if it bombs. The course could also be used for dirt bikes and maybe snowmobiles in winter. That would be real popular with locals if the car guys don't book enough.

I think it's an excellent idea.

[magicmike]

I've talked to a business owner friend of mine today about this and he brought up some good points. The main one being liability like you said evolution. Insurance would be a bitch although I think having everyone sign a waiver would be enough. I would just need a good atourney to write something up. The other point that was brought up was property taxes. I was thinking of around 25-30 acres. I have no idea what the taxes would be but I plan to find out. The areas I'm going to be looking around are as close to me as possible. I'm looking at southern new hampshire, maine, and maybe vermont. I didn't even consider the winter snowmobiling thing thanks for a great idea and also all the other informaion rallysam. I dont currenly rallycross but I plan to build my silver wagon to do so just for fun. nothing too serious. Do you have any idea what the minimum size lot would work? An acre is just under the size of a football field so maybe like 5 might be enough. I cant really visualize it.

[evolutionmovement]

I think ME propety taxes are high, but I could be completely wrong. I know there's some tax they pay that's high. NH has no income tax, so all their money comes from property taxes. They still have nothing for utilities anyway. In reality, their property taxes aren't a hell of a lot worse than MA considering MA also has sales taxes and income taxes to pay. NH near the Rtes 93 and 95 is expensive, but north more and west gets pretty cheap (i keep eyeing some beautiful lake properties but have to smack myself back into reality with the fact that there's no way to make money up there. However, if my books sell better than I think...) Middle-of-nowhere ME is dirt money for land, but may be too far out of the way for business. I don't know much about VT.

Not sure if a waiver is enough since I know dirtbag lawyers try to work through any signed agreement no matter how plain the terms. Then again, that's why you have insurance. I'm definitely not trying to be a naysayer, so I hope I don't sound like one.

[rallysam]

About the liability -

It's not as bad as you think because the sanctioning body (SCCA) carries a ton of insurance. That is the whole reason for having a sanctioning body. Your regional executive (Scott Beliveau) probably has a standard packet of info given to all landowners for autocrosses and rallycrosses to explain the situation.

My reasoning is, if the liability was so daunting, then there wouldn't be hundreds of autocrosses and handfuls of rallycrosses every month around the country.

Not saying you couldn't ever be sued - in this country you can get sued because somebody slipped on the ice in front of your house - I'm just saying it is a managable situation.

[rallysam]

Here's the New England Region rallycross page:

http://www.ner.org/Rally/default.htm

There's an event schedule
Also, if you click on "Rally Board" you can find Scott Beliveau's contact info. He'd be happy to help you out.

[magicmike]

I actualy emailed this guy back a while ago when I first got my car on the road and was interested in racing. he emailed me back once and I replied with more questions and wanted to become an scca member and he never returned any emails from there. I got pissed and never tried again. I will keep this post updated with my progress. I think I'm going to lean towards NH for land.

[rallysam]

I actualy emailed this guy back a while ago when I first got my car on the road and was interested in racing. he emailed me back once and I replied with more questions and wanted to become an scca member and he never returned any emails from there. I got pissed and never tried again. I will keep this post updated with my progress. I think I'm going to lean towards NH for land.

Really? That sucks. Scott's always been cool to me and I thought he was helpful to newcomers. Well whatever. Maybe try someone else on the list first. Most rally guys I've met want to help newcomers... and it's also their job to help noobs and to get new sites for events, so they'll want to help ya!!!

[douglas vincent]

Other than liability, and the main fact that it would have to be an almost completely cleared piece of land, my biggest concern would be lack of customers.

How close are you to a large, and I mean large, community that is willing to drive to the boonies to race?

[evolutionmovement]

Snowmobiles, dirt bikes, and maybe off road truck customers would be numerous. Some cars, but that would be my concern.

[206er]

yeah, off roaders, especially in the new england area where they are hurting for spots to wheel at would be a HUGE customer base and would pay dearly for the opportunity. the problem would be getting a big enough piece of land with the features to make it worth it.

[sammydafish]

rallysam has some really good advice on this. Like he said, the sactioning body has event insurance and if you want to allow smaller groups (just plain car shows or other small rallycross/off road events) then all you need to do is require the event organizers to buy temporary event insurance. This is common place. A million dollar one or two day event insurance policy only costs a few hundred bucks and any event organizer will understand it's need. I've had to do this for car shows that we've put on. It's not a big deal.

If you want to do it as an investment, then making money from using the property as a venue for events like this probably isn't going to make you to much bank. Like others have said though, you'll probably be able to cover your taxes and and any upkeep expenses. Since bare land maintains its value and somtimes goes up in value it will at least be good equity. Maybe one day you build on it or flip it for a payoff. If it is a vialble venue for these kids of events though, at least it won't cost you anything and you'll be allowing a lot of people to have a place to participate in events that they love. That gives pretty big kuddos to you, so factor that into the quation, though that's probably ben party if your original intention

[0perose]

do it up!!!!

[magicmike]

I have gotten a ton of information. I'll keep you all posted. I'm just going to blanket search in RI and local MA also. If the place was an hour drive from RI or less that would be better.

[greg donovan]

invest in a tractor w/a blade to smooth out the course as well as a packer that circle tracks use to smoout out the course.

dont run the same course too often. the ruts will get very deep and hard to get rid of.

get a port a potty and a serice to come out and empty it.

sell food pop and water. we made more money selling food at our events that we did from the car fees we charged to the club.

the scca insurance policy will take care of the events.

set up some place to watch that will be elevated and safe. also make a dirt pile or elevated area for the cone counters and for timing and scoring.

[magicmike]

you guys are great, all this great info and its all free lol, too bad land in RI isn't free. Holy jesus, 50k for .21 acres in rhode island. I did see some land in new hampshire (about 20acres for 30k but I would have to drive out there to investigate. I'll have time for that in a few months.

[0perose]

invest in a tractor w/a blade to smooth out the course as well as a packer that circle tracks use to smoout out the course.

dont run the same course too often. the ruts will get very deep and hard to get rid of.

get a port a potty and a serice to come out and empty it.

sell food pop and water. we made more money selling food at our events that we did from the car fees we charged to the club.

the scca insurance policy will take care of the events.

set up some place to watch that will be elevated and safe. also make a dirt pile or elevated area for the cone counters and for timing and scoring.

you'd be surprised at what kind of farm impliments you can make and tow behind a subaru....... a lenth of i-beam or railroad track with chain hooked to each end around the ball hitch on someone's car and you can smooth out some pretty rutted trails..... go over that with a steel spring mattress, and you can make a roller out of an old propane tank filled with sand, gravel, or water....

and mike, you should look at land in new york.. not sure about down state but up here it is SUPER cheap (long ways from you though)

[sammydafish]

0perose, where in NY are you?




If you're interested in NY, I've got 26 acres of nice rolling hills for sale wouldn't make much of a rallycross site, but that's what we have the quarry for

[0perose]

I'm in potsdam. could've sworn my location was in my profile... it is now