Turbo Legacy Potential in FSP (autocross)

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jpimm2002
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Turbo Legacy Potential in FSP (autocross)

Post by jpimm2002 »

This actually covers several categories but the stock turbo is the biggest question so I figured I would put it here. Mods, If you think it would better fit in Motorsports feel free to move it.

I was reading through the Street Prepared section of the 2007 solo rulebook and found some interesting allowances for the turbo cars. If you want to download and read through it you can find it here:
http://www.scca.com/_FileLibrary/File/2007SoloRules.pdf

Anyway I'll post the important sections so you don't have to read the whole thing.

Here is the section directly talking about the turbos and allowed modifications:
15.10
C.
4. Turbochargers and/or superchargers (“forced induction”) may
not be added, changed, or modified. On vehicles originally
equipped with forced induction:
a) No hardware changes or alterations to turbocharger(s) or
supercharger(s), in size or number, are permitted. Turbochargers
or superchargers may be updated/backdated only
in conjunction with the accompanying complete engine
unit.
b) No changes are allowed to waste gate(s) size, number, or
location. No changes are allowed to variable-geometryturbine
(VGT) hardware.
d) No changes are permitted to blow-off/pop-off valves.
e) Compressor bypass valves (CBVs) are considered part of
the air intake system, and may be replaced or updated/
backdated independently of the other components of a
forced induction system.
f) Boost regulation systems, either electronic or mechanical,
and electronic fuel cuts referencing boost pressure may be
altered or modified except as prohibited herein. Boost
pressure changes resulting from authorized changes are
permitted.

and
15.10
C
3. As utilized only on engines originally equipped with forced
induction, induction charge heat exchangers (known as “intercoolers”
or “charge air coolers (CACs)”) are unrestricted in
size and configuration. Air-to-air CACs and radiators for airto-
liquid CACs must be cooled only by the atmosphere, except
for standard parts. Body panels, fascias, or structural members
may not be cut or altered to facilitate CAC installation.
So that means that boost controllers, FCD's, and Intercoolers are legal. But it also says that the turbo must remain STOCK.

Here are the ECU alowances:
15.1
D. Alternate computer control modules may be used whenever an
equivalent change to the conventional system is allowed. For
example, alternate computer module control of ignition settings or
fuel injection is allowed.
The only mention of fuel pressure regulators in the rule book is this line in street touring. All the rules from lower classes carry over to the higher ones.
14.10
3. Fuel pressure regulators may be replaced in lieu of electronic
alterations to the fuel system. It is not permitted to electronically
modify the fuel system AND replace a fuel pressure
regulator.
The Street Prepared section specifically says you can use alternate computer modules to control fuel so I think that means you can do both in Street Prepared even though you can't in Street Touring.

So figuring all this in what are the absolute limits of the stock turbo? Forget efficiency, if it makes any more power with more boost it's worth it. Granted all of the power with the stock turbo is going to be low to midrange with limited topend. But in autocross you spend most of your time between 2500 and 4500 so that would be fine. How much boost can it make and what is it going to fall off to by redline?

Heatsoak of the intercooler is probably going to be a big problem so I figure you'd have to soak the intercooler down between runs (maybe even with ice water in a garden sprayer). Would the water/air intercoolers be effective or would they just heatsoak too?

There is nothing in the rules that says you can't run octane booster, and you can retard the timing so detonation should be easy to avoid. Water injection is legal too so that may help.

So what would someone with this setup be looking at power wise?

Would it even be possible to up the boost much without introducing too much heat to manage? Or would icing down the intercooler between runs be adequate to manage it?

My theory is that if you could get a decent amount of power with these allowances you could pretty much dominate FSP. At least until SCCA figures it out and moves it to ESP. :lol:

Sorry for the long post. I thought this was better that just giving you a link to the rulebook and telling you to go read.

Anyway I'm just looking for some of your thought/ideas on the topic . I'm leaving to go camping tomorrow so I won't be able to see your responses until Sunday afternoon.
92 Legacy L
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SemperGuard
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Post by SemperGuard »

To domintae FSP, I'd think the LEgacy Turbo wouldn't be that great of a choice. If you want to stick with a subaru, go with an older one. RX, XT Turbo, or XT6 would be the choice.

FWD version of any of the old EA series is pretty light, like anywhere from 500-900 lbs lighter than a Legacy Turbo. Has a much shorter wheelbase, like 4 inches I think.

The light weight makes up for the lack of power, and whatnot. MSaller brakes and wheels, lighter here and there. Just an all around better car for autocross I think.

I know personally my stock FWD XT Turbo is just as fast as my heavily modified Legacy, faster in some cases.
bmxkelowna
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Post by bmxkelowna »

i know usa fsp rules are different then here in Canada but my cars classed as fsp here.

on a weekly basses I'm any where from 4-6th after pax and the only things that beat me are cspr miatas and then after me is still 4 or 5 miatas before the next type of car.

i don't even have the best set up fsp car
suspension is: kyb agx (2/4F 8/8R), intrax lowering springs
tires are: 205/50/15 falken azenis on the stock tleg rims
power mods: crank pulley, intercooler, jdm tdo4

so with the right driver our cars can do okay in fsp
jpimm2002
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Post by jpimm2002 »

I guess I should have mentioned that I already run a legacy with a 2.5 swap in FSP and am pretty competitive as it is.

SemperGuard, The problem with the old ea cars is that there is absolutely no aftermarket for them and there suspension geometry in stock form leaves a lot to be desired. Also The EA82t is probably one of subaru's least reliable engines.

bmxkelowna, I already have GC coilovers on KYB agx's and whiteline swaybars. I know that these cars are more than capable but when it comes down to it you are up against 2400#, 160 HP Ford Focus's and similar cars. You are going to have to have the same power to weight ratio of these cars if you are going to compete with national competitive cars/drivers. As of right now at local events I pax in the top 3 usually so I am a capable driver. I am just thinking about future upgrade paths/options when I have truly maxed out the car in its current form.

I was looking for tips on the technical side of things. I guess I should have mentioned I'm thinking of a nationally competitive setup in the future. There is a big difference between local competition and national competition. At nationals a couple HP can mean the difference between winning and loosing.
92 Legacy L
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jpimm2002
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Post by jpimm2002 »

I've searched and can only find people that swapped to a larger turbo. I need people that have maxed out their stock turbo. So the question stands... What is the max people have gotten out of the stock turbo and what intercooler did they use? Keep in mind water injection is legal so that could help combat the turbo's inefficiency.

I'm mostly interested in what kind of torque numbers you'd end up with. Obviously that small of a turbo isn't going to make much top end, but top end power doesn't really help in auto-x anyway. What I'm looking for is the low-midrange punch you'd get from the stock turbo. I'm just theorizing on possible future car paths. This isn't something I'm definitely looking at doing, it's just a thought.
92 Legacy L
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jpimm2002
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Post by jpimm2002 »

So am I to take this to mean that no one on this board has maxed out the stock turbo?

After rereading the rules fuel injection is free so you can use bigger injectors. The rules are a bit vague on EM so standalone may not be legal, but the greddy e-manage ultimate could be useful when the MAF gets maxed out. Or just use it to bypass the MAF altogether.

The way I see it, with the 2.5, I currently have 145WHP at best (probably less). I've seen 150+ on NASIOC but that included cams. From what I've read on here 200CHP is the universally easy to reach number, with the stock turbo, which should equate to about 160WHP. So, what are the not so easy to reach numbers? Is 180-200 WHP possible with intercooler, bigger injectors, Greddy E-manage, water injection, boost controller, TBE, and intake? But then again HP is probably not the best way to measure this setup. Would 200+ WTQ be achievable with this setup?

Now all I need is some responses.... :(

I see 113 views and no one has written in with ideas. why?
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555BCTurbo
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Post by 555BCTurbo »

jpimm2002 wrote:So am I to take this to mean that no one on this board has maxed out the stock turbo?

After rereading the rules fuel injection is free so you can use bigger injectors. The rules are a bit vague on EM so standalone may not be legal, but the greddy e-manage ultimate could be useful when the MAF gets maxed out. Or just use it to bypass the MAF altogether.

The way I see it, with the 2.5, I currently have 145WHP at best (probably less). I've seen 150+ on NASIOC but that included cams. From what I've read on here 200CHP is the universally easy to reach number, with the stock turbo, which should equate to about 160WHP. So, what are the not so easy to reach numbers? Is 180-200 WHP possible with intercooler, bigger injectors, Greddy E-manage, water injection, boost controller, TBE, and intake? But then again HP is probably not the best way to measure this setup. Would 200+ WTQ be achievable with this setup?

Now all I need is some responses.... :(

I see 113 views and no one has written in with ideas. why?
Your numbers seem pretty well on Jeremy...go for it man!
Nick

1987 Audi 4000CS quattro...soon to be 20VT
1994 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 CTD, #11 plate, 30 psi, Scotty II intake, 4" exhaust
rallylegacy57
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Post by rallylegacy57 »

I actually had the same idea as you did with the turbo Legacy being a good FSP car. I have been rallycrossing a 2.2 liter NA 93 for about 2 1/2 years and I have been autocrossing varies cars for about 7 years. I realized what class this car would be in and thought it would be a great car for that class. You can run full coil-overs from just about any later model Subaru with some small modifications. FSP allows any type of fuel which means C16 leaded race fuel is legal and that opens doors to even bigger power/torque. As far as cooling the intercooler just get a block of dry ice and a cooler and gloves. Put the block of dry ice on the intercooler while sitting in grid between runs and remove it right before you leave grid since you can't leave it there during the run. Unless you wanted to create a dry ice to air intercooler where the air passes through a box of sorts with dry ice in it. That would take some fabricating but might work.


As you said water injection is legal and no emission equipment need to be on the car either so the exhaust is totally open as long as it exits behind the driver. The new 275/35/15 Hoosiers would make a great tire as well on some 15x10 inch wheels. I am not totally sure on what type of power you could get with all that but I imagine the torque would be quite significant. Those are some ideas off the top of my head and I might be starting this type of project during the course of next year and actually running it Nationally in 2009 if I decide to go this route.
1993 Legcy LSi AWD 5 Speed Rallycross car
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