Help with Starting Problems

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none77
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Help with Starting Problems

Post by none77 »

I suddenly started having problems getting my 1991 Legacy Non-Turbo started. It was around the time someone tried to steal stereo, Maybe a coincidence?

I go out and try to start it, and it cranks and cranks nothing happens. It doesn't even sound like its trying to start. It just cranks and cranks.

I remove battery, and charge it overnight. I install battery and it starts on first turn of key.

I drive the car normally without any problems run errands. The car starts on first turn of key.

I park the car overnight, and next day same scenario. I try starting run down battery, and even try to jump it. I remove battery and charge it overnight, starts on first try.

I'm starting to suspect that when I'm removing the battery it resets something, and allows it to start.

I connected the black wires and tried to pull the codes. I think they are 31, 11, 12.

Here is a link to short video of CEl with Black Wires Connected. It's 11 degrees here which makes everything harder.

https://goo.gl/photos/MapBRWcqibj7z2Pk7

Thanks for any help!
none77
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Re: Help with Starting Problems

Post by none77 »

mike-tracy
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Re: Help with Starting Problems

Post by mike-tracy »

11 Crankshaft position sensor
12 Starter switch
31 Throttle position sensor

You read the codes correctly.
Codes 11 and 12 could cause the car not to start. Did they try to break your ignition lock?
1992 Legacy SS 5mt, build in progress
Josh Colombo wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2002 10:23 am Wait....I'm confused now.
none77
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Re: Help with Starting Problems

Post by none77 »

There isn't any evidence of tampering with my ignition, but they might have pulled on wires trying to reach behind stereo. Everything looks intact, but after the break in . The horn wouldn't work. I noticed the horn worked when the car wouldn't start, but stopped working when the car was running. Strange stuff... I have done a lot of work on cars. Big jobs like head gaskets, and swapping transmissions. I get intimidated by electrical problems. I have never really learned how to properly troubleshoot, and diagnose.

I have repaired guitar amplifiers,guitars. and other audio components. So, in theory I should be able to figure it out, if needed.
mike-tracy
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Re: Help with Starting Problems

Post by mike-tracy »

When it is running next time, would you check for active codes with the green connector?

Also, check the crank sensor to see if it isnt clogged with grease and magnetic material. Search for the TPS adjustment procedure, that is an easy one to get in spec.
1992 Legacy SS 5mt, build in progress
Josh Colombo wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2002 10:23 am Wait....I'm confused now.
Legacy777
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Re: Help with Starting Problems

Post by Legacy777 »

Have you had your battery load tested to make sure it's still good. Unless there is an aftermarket alarm or security system there shouldn't be anything that "resets" when the battery is pulled.

Electrical troubleshooting isn't too bad to learn. I recommend getting a digital multimeter and either a book or look at videos online on how to use it. Once you do that I think you'll find that electrical troubleshooting isn't that bad. You need to understand some of the principles and how to read wiring diagrams.
Josh

surrealmirage.com/subaru
1990 Legacy (AWD, 6MT, & EJ22T Swap)
2020 Outback Limted XT

If you need to get a hold of me please email me rather then pm
none77
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Re: Help with Starting Problems

Post by none77 »

I did have battery tested, and its good. It will really crank the starter. I only have to charge it, after trying repeatedly to start car.

I have a multi-meter and can read basic schematic. I'm not sure exactly what to look for.

Will code 12 cause the ecu to lock out the car because of improper starter signal?

Here is another video of trying to start the car, and I can hear a clicking like a solenoid. My guess is that it is related to fuel pump, but I didn't see a Fuel Pump Solenoid on my electrical panel diagram??

https://goo.gl/photos/eWKAz9yGvumocJDG9
Legacy777
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Re: Help with Starting Problems

Post by Legacy777 »

It was a little difficult to hear any clicking in the video. I'm assuming you have the black diagnostic connectors connected to check the ECU codes. Are the green diagnostic connectors connected or disconnected?

As for code 12, you can d/l the service manual from me and on page 189 & 190 of 336 there are troubleshooting steps to see what component may not be working correctly.

http://www.main.experiencetherave.com/s ... and_Elect/
Josh

surrealmirage.com/subaru
1990 Legacy (AWD, 6MT, & EJ22T Swap)
2020 Outback Limted XT

If you need to get a hold of me please email me rather then pm
none77
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Re: Help with Starting Problems

Post by none77 »

I D/L service manual. I'm shocked with all the good information in there!

Friday I tried tapping in the area of the Fuel Pump relay and the car started right up. It seemed to be running great.

Saturday I replaced the Fuel Pump Relay. I suspected that it was the problem.

I couldn't get the car started, and when I connect the black wires I get codes 31, 13.

These are Throttle position sensor and Cam sensor. Would it be common that they booth fail at same time?

They seem to be crazy expensive. $150.00 each from Rock Auto.
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Re: Help with Starting Problems

Post by cj91legss »

I have a couple I believe.
91 L-TW Wagon with a full Swap -RIP
92 SS Prefaced, GD dash swapped, 22T/205 Hybrid 20 psi - BEAST!
93 SS Bone Stock Gone!
94 TW Bone Stock Gone!
91 SS 4EAT Sold!
98 LGT 4EAT
98 LGT Wagon 4EAT
mike-tracy
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Re: Help with Starting Problems

Post by mike-tracy »

I saw codes for both cam and crank when my timing belt skipped. Luckily these are non interference motors.
1992 Legacy SS 5mt, build in progress
Josh Colombo wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2002 10:23 am Wait....I'm confused now.
none77
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Re: Help with Starting Problems

Post by none77 »

Last night charged battery overnight, and today the car started on first turn.

I runs great, and doesn't have any codes. I disconnected & reconnected the cam sensor just to make sure it was making a good connection.
Legacy777
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Re: Help with Starting Problems

Post by Legacy777 »

They are probably erroneous codes. I usually always clear the codes and see what come back to make sure.

Hopefully the fuel pump relay was the issue.
Josh

surrealmirage.com/subaru
1990 Legacy (AWD, 6MT, & EJ22T Swap)
2020 Outback Limted XT

If you need to get a hold of me please email me rather then pm
none77
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Re: Help with Starting Problems

Post by none77 »

Would Throttle Position Sensor cause intermittent starting problems?

I found a Cam Sensor from a 93 Legacy, and swapped it into my car, and I still can't get it started.

Very frustrating!
Legacy777
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Re: Help with Starting Problems

Post by Legacy777 »

I don't think the TPS would cause your problems, but anything is possible. Have you checked the idle switch on the TPS? That's the only thing that I think could affect starting.
Josh

surrealmirage.com/subaru
1990 Legacy (AWD, 6MT, & EJ22T Swap)
2020 Outback Limted XT

If you need to get a hold of me please email me rather then pm
none77
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Re: Help with Starting Problems

Post by none77 »

Legacy decided to start today. CEL is constantly on while driving car with Black Connectors Connected. If I turn off car, and turn ignition to on, I get code for Cam Sensor.

The last time car was running, the CEL was blinking code while I was driving car with Black Connectors connected.

I tried connecting Green Connectors, and driving car, but I didn't get any codes.

I should mention that I'm using a ECU/ECM from a 1993 Legacy. The 1993 was running with problems, but Transmission had failed, and guy parted it out because it was rusty.
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Re: Help with Starting Problems

Post by Legacy777 »

I don't know if the 93 ECU is the same as the 92, but if it is I found the MT/AT identifier pin to be backwards from what the 90-91 ECU's were. Additionally, the injectors are different and have a slightly different flow rate. The engine will still run but from my experience wasn't as "snappy"
Josh

surrealmirage.com/subaru
1990 Legacy (AWD, 6MT, & EJ22T Swap)
2020 Outback Limted XT

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none77
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Re: Help with Starting Problems

Post by none77 »

Video https://goo.gl/photos/dcdrcXabRPdJow8h8


I swapped the fuel rails, injectors, and ECU from 93 Legacy NA Auto. The car has run great up until the last couple of months. It still runs great, but can be really hard/impossible to start if it sits for a few days.

I noticed white smoke from exhaust upon initial starting. Today i took a picture and video. Radiator level is good, and there is coolant in overflow reservoir.

I'm wondering if head gasket is failing, and this is causing starting problems??

Thanks for input.
none77
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Re: Help with Starting Problems

Post by none77 »

Legacy777
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Re: Help with Starting Problems

Post by Legacy777 »

Yeah, unfortunately that's quite a bit of white smoke. I'd recommend doing a compression and leak down test and see what you find. Depending on the results you can get a combustion leak detector to confirm there's an issue or not.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000NPDL76/
http://www.amazon.com/Lisle-75500-Combu ... B0007ZDRUI
Josh

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1990 Legacy (AWD, 6MT, & EJ22T Swap)
2020 Outback Limted XT

If you need to get a hold of me please email me rather then pm
none77
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Re: Help with Starting Problems

Post by none77 »

I forgot to reply months ago, but I figured out my problem. It was a combination of a stuck open fuel injector, sea foam, and bad gas. I siphoned out the old gas, and replaced it with new. I was able to get it started, but it ran terrible. I was at a loss. So, I took it to local garage. They thought a fuel injector wasn't closing properly. I swapped the fuel injector with a new used injector and it fixed the problem. I'm not sure why I wasn't getting a CEl, but its running great again.

Thanks to everyone for all the suggestions!
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Re: Help with Starting Problems

Post by Legacy777 »

Thanks for following up and letting us know the solution.
Josh

surrealmirage.com/subaru
1990 Legacy (AWD, 6MT, & EJ22T Swap)
2020 Outback Limted XT

If you need to get a hold of me please email me rather then pm
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