TD05 16G or VF34?

That spinning thing that makes all of the cool noises. OE and Aftermarket.

Moderators: Helpinators, Moderators

Post Reply
BoneIslandScooby
First Gear
Posts: 219
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:43 am
Location: Key West, Florida

TD05 16G or VF34?

Post by BoneIslandScooby »

With a Rob Tune 550 ECU and all the supporting modifications, would it make any difference if I used one turbo or the other? Would I be limited to the same peak horsepower anyway? However, spool might be quicker on the VF34, if I am to believe the majority of what I have read. Does anybody have any experience with both of these, and can compare them?
BoneIslandScooby
First Gear
Posts: 219
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:43 am
Location: Key West, Florida

Re: TD05 16G or VF34?

Post by BoneIslandScooby »

Anybody? Need to know if I should pull the trigger on a VF34 or hold out for a TD05.
Legacy777
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 27748
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:37 am
Location: Houston, Tx
Contact:

Re: TD05 16G or VF34?

Post by Legacy777 »

I can't speak on the turbo differences, but the power potential should essentially be the same, the difference may be how quickly boost comes on and what amount of boost it takes to deliver the same power.
Josh

surrealmirage.com/subaru
1990 Legacy (AWD, 6MT, & EJ22T Swap)
2020 Outback Limted XT

If you need to get a hold of me please email me rather then pm
BoneIslandScooby
First Gear
Posts: 219
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:43 am
Location: Key West, Florida

Re: TD05 16G or VF34?

Post by BoneIslandScooby »

So, either way I'm going to achieve the peak power that the Rob Tune has to offer, just with a slightly different power curve? Anybody want to make any comments on the reliability of one turbo as opposed to the other? The VF34 I have in mind supposedly has a little bit of shaft play.
wtdash
Fifth Gear
Posts: 2327
Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 4:09 pm
Location: N. ID

Re: TD05 16G or VF34?

Post by wtdash »

HI,
--What are you after? More Low-end grunt for around town and Auto-cross, or higher-end (read: TicketsRUS) thrust? The VF34 may be better for more of the former; the TD05 the latter....but this is just from my past experience and reading. The VF39 (and newer VF43/48) of the '04-'07 is referred to as a good 'go-between' when it comes to choosing the TD04 vs TD05. And I'd guess the VF34 is closer to a VF39 than the TD05.

--Comparing CFM from THIS POST on NASIOC may help w/comparisons, too.:
CFM VF34 = 460; TD05H-16G = ~505 (I got this from the non-Subie 16G turbos, which are not necessarily the same as a Subaru OEM TD05H as I haven't found its CFM listed - yet). (Also see below - "Small 16G")


--If you have a 5-speed you can usually shift around lag easier than w/the 4EAT Automatic.

--You don't want any play in>>out. side to side is usually OK, but might want to read up on that as the VF34 is a 'roller bearing' turbo vs. 'thrust bearing' turbo. I 'think' the thrust bearing has a bit of play 'til it's got oil running through it, which is normal. I don't know if the roller bearing turbos are the same.

--For the Rob Tune, you'll get more out of it w/the TD05 on the dyno, I'd guess, based just on the CFM #'s, but that doesn't make it more fun on the street.


--Check THIS THREAD too (posted here for reference):
Compiled by Hotrod on NASIOC:

Last updated 12/28/02
Turbo Type ----------- Approx flow @ pressure
Stock Turbo ---------- 360 CFM at 14.7 PSI
IHI VF 25 ------------- 370 CFM at 14.7 PSI <--- estimated
IHI VF 26 ------------- 390 CFM at 14.7 PSI <--- estimated
T3 60 trim ----------- 400 CFM at 14.7 PSI
IHI VF 27 ------------- 400 CFM at 14.7 PSI <--- estimated
IHI VF 24/28/29 ----- 410 CFM at 14.7 PSI <--- estimated

========= 422 CFM max flow for a 2 Liter at .85 VE pressure ratio 2.0 (14.7 PSI) 7000 RPM =======

IHI VF 23 ------------- 423 CFM at 14.7 PSI
FP STOCK HYBRID -- 430 CFM at 14.7 PSI <--- derived from HP potential listed on web
IHI VF-30 ------------- 435 CFM at 14.7 PSI <--- estimated
SR 30 ----------------- 435 CFM at 14.7 PSI
IHI VF-22 ------------ 440 CFM at 14.7 PSI <--- refigured
T04E 40 trim -------- 460 CFM at 14.7 PSI

========= 464 CFM max flow for a 2.2 Liter at .85 VE pressure ratio 2.0 (14.7 PSI) 7000 rpm =======

PE1818 -------------- 490 CFM at 14.7 PSI <--- estimated from max flow numbers
Small 16G ------------ 505 CFM at 14.7 PSI
ION Spec (stg 0) --- 525 CFM at 14.7 PSI <--- per vendor post 12-27-2002

========= 526 CFM max flow for a 2.5 Liter at .85 VE pressure ratio 2.0 (14.7 PSI) 7000 RPM =======

Large 16G ----------- 550 CFM at 14.7 PSI
SR 40 ----------------- 595 CFM at 14.7 PSI
18G ------------------- 600 CFM at 14.7 PSI
PE 1820 -------------- 630 CFM at 14.7 PSI <--- estimated from max flow numbers
20G ------------------ 650 CFM at 14.7 PSI
SR 50 ---------------- 710 CFM at 14.7 PSI
GT-30 ---------------- 725 CFM at 14.7 PSI
60-1 ----------------- 725 CFM at 14.7 PSI
GT-35R -------------- 820 CFM at 14.7 PSI
T72 ------------------ 920 CFM at 14.7 PSI <--- Note you would have to spin a 2.0 L engine at about 14,000 rpm to flow this much air.

IHI VF 25 ----------- 395 CFM at 18 PSI <--- estimated
IHI VF 26 ----------- 400 CFM at 18 PSI <--- estimated
T3 60 trim ---------- 410 CFM at 20 PSI
IHI VF 27 ----------- 420 CFM at 18 PSI <--- estimated
IHI VF 24/28/29 -- 425 CFM at 18 PSI <--- estimated
IHI VF 23 ----------- 430 CFM at 18 PSI <--- estimated
IHI VF-30 ----------- 460 CFM at 18.0 PSI <--- estimate based on trap speeds of cars running this turbo
AVO 320HP -------- 465 CFM at 17.5 PSI
T04E 40 trim ------ 465 CFM at 22 PSI
FP STOCK HYBRID- 490 CFM at 18.0 PSI
IHI VF-22 ---------- 490 CFM at 18.0 PSI <--- refigured
SR 30 --------------- 490 CFM at 22 PSI
Small 16G ---------- 490 CFM at 22 PSI
ION Spec (stg 0) - 500 CFM at 19 PSI <--- per vendor post 12-27-2002
PE1818 ------------ 515 CFM at 22 PSI <--- estimated from manufactures rated max power
Large 16G --------- 520 CFM at 22 PSI <--- upgraded flow some on review of compressor map

========= 526 CFM max flow for a 2 Liter at .85 VE pressure ratio 2.5 (22 PSI) 7000 rpm =======

========= 578 CFM max flow for a 2.2 Liter at .85 VE pressure ratio 2.5 (22 PSI) 7000 rpm =======

HKS GT2835 ------- 580 CFM at 22 PSI 400 hp
MRT 400 ------------ 580 CFM at 16 PSI
AVO 400HP -------- 580 CFM at 17.5 PSI
MRT 450 ------------ 650 CFM at 19 PSI
AVO 450HP -------- 650 CFM at 20.0 PSI
SR 40 ---------------- 650 CFM at 22 PSI

========= 658 CFM max flow for a 2.5 Liter at .85 VE pressure ratio 2.5 (22 PSI) 7000 rpm =======

HKS GT3037 ------ 670 CFM at 22 PSI 460 hp
PE 1820 ----------- 680 CFM at 22 PSI <--- estimated from manufactures rated max power
20G ---------------- 695 CFM at 20.0 PSI
HKS GT3040 ----- 710 CFM at 22 PSI 490 hp
AVO 500HP ------ 770 CFM at 22 PSI
SR 50 ------------- 770 CFM at 22 PSI
GT-30 ------------- 790 CFM at 22 PSI
60-1 --------------- 800 CFM at 22 PSI
HKS GT3240 ----- 830 CFM at 22 PSI 570 hp
GT-35R ----------- 880 CFM at 22 PSI
T72 --------------- 1000 CFM at 22 PSI <--- note you would have to run a 2.0 L engine at >40 PSI boost to flow this much air

Conversions used where I had control over conversion factors:
1 HP approx equals 1.45 CFM

1 CFM approx equals 0.0745 lb of air/min

0.108 Lb/min approx equals 1 hp

1 Meter cubed/sec = 35.314 CFS = 2118.867 CFM

1 KG/sec = 132 lbs/min approx equals 1771.812 CFM

power coversions:
1 PS = 0.9859 HP = 75 Kgf m/sec
1.3405 HP = 1 KW
1 HP = 746 watts
Turbo Subies:
'87 GL-10 Turbo - SOLD
'90 BJ EJ22T/DOHC & 5speed swap - SOLD
'04 FXT, Forged internals, VF39, STI TMIC, Cobb AP- SOLD
'93 Legacy SS - 5-speed, SOLD :-(
'02 WRX -SOLD
'96 BD-turbo'd-SOLD
'98 SF - NA-T
BoneIslandScooby
First Gear
Posts: 219
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:43 am
Location: Key West, Florida

Re: TD05 16G or VF34?

Post by BoneIslandScooby »

I wonder what their flow is at 18 PSI since this is the PSI we are limited to with the Rob Tune. I believe they can both achieve the same peak power, because we are limited to the limits of the tune available. I plan on eventually stretching that with AWIC and/or possibly Meth/Water injection, but that will be learned after time after they are installed. Considering that, I might eventually be able to get more power with a turbo that can achieve higher peak boost. Then again, if I understand it correctly the MAF would be maxed out anyway. (unless I fool the computer with a MAF T Pro?) However, the power curve will be different right away depending on the turbo's spool characteristics.

Autocross is what I'll do, as well as some city driving, and the occasional long trip to be able to enjoy it. I was concerned with fuel economy a bit, which is why I almost wanted to get a TD05 because around town it might not even hit boost if I'm careful.

BTW, thanks for all the info everybody.
Legacy777
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 27748
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:37 am
Location: Houston, Tx
Contact:

Re: TD05 16G or VF34?

Post by Legacy777 »

Honestly....I think you're overthinking it. They are very similar turbos and while we can talk about the numbers of cfm differences or rpms difference in when they build boost, I really don't think you'll notice much difference in actual driving.

I have no issues with lag on my TD05-16G and am very happy with the turbo. I has had a little porting work done to it, but even without that I can't see that the characteristics would change that drastically. I can't comment on the VF34, but I think you should just get what you think is going to work best for your application and power goals.

BTW, the MAF is your limiting factor and the MAF doesn't care about max boost pressure, it cares about air flow. So if you can flow the same air at 17 psi with turbo A as you can at 20 psi turbo B the boost pressure really isn't that critical. If you run a MBC or EBC, you can pretty much tweak your boost to whatever you need.
Josh

surrealmirage.com/subaru
1990 Legacy (AWD, 6MT, & EJ22T Swap)
2020 Outback Limted XT

If you need to get a hold of me please email me rather then pm
BoneIslandScooby
First Gear
Posts: 219
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:43 am
Location: Key West, Florida

Re: TD05 16G or VF34?

Post by BoneIslandScooby »

Got it. You're not limited to a pre set boost level, but rather to a max air flow by the MAF. Different turbos will achieve that max air flow at different boost levels, and some will achieve it sooner and some later. Might a MAFT Pro help with that? I know somebody on here was using one. Of course we are also limited by the reliability of a stock engine with a bunch of miles on it already. By the way, that's my modus operandi. I overthink things.
BoneIslandScooby
First Gear
Posts: 219
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:43 am
Location: Key West, Florida

Re: TD05 16G or VF34?

Post by BoneIslandScooby »

I wonder if an '08 STI fuel pump would be enough for this setup. Also, does an '07 STI Bypass Valve fit on an '06-'07 WRX TMIC?
wtdash
Fifth Gear
Posts: 2327
Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 4:09 pm
Location: N. ID

Re: TD05 16G or VF34?

Post by wtdash »

If you're going to the trouble of changing it, I'd recommend getting a DW or Walbro pump, but the STi will work. - Same injectors on the '04-'07 STi as the 550 Rob Tune, and I'd think there's enough overhead built-in to cover the injectors to 19 psi. Check w/Rob, if you're unsure.



Yes the BPV will work...based on my research a couple of years ago - HERE.
Turbo Subies:
'87 GL-10 Turbo - SOLD
'90 BJ EJ22T/DOHC & 5speed swap - SOLD
'04 FXT, Forged internals, VF39, STI TMIC, Cobb AP- SOLD
'93 Legacy SS - 5-speed, SOLD :-(
'02 WRX -SOLD
'96 BD-turbo'd-SOLD
'98 SF - NA-T
BoneIslandScooby
First Gear
Posts: 219
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:43 am
Location: Key West, Florida

Re: TD05 16G or VF34?

Post by BoneIslandScooby »

wtdash, thank you very much for the help. Seller of VF34 says shaft play is side to side, now to see if he's thinking about it in the same sense I'm thinking about it. I'm trying to get a video of it. I will post once I get it.
BoneIslandScooby
First Gear
Posts: 219
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:43 am
Location: Key West, Florida

Re: TD05 16G or VF34?

Post by BoneIslandScooby »

Anybody have any experience using one of the basic rebuild kits for IHI turbos? They obviously do not include the roller bearing, but give you everything else to refresh the turbo.
Legacy777
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 27748
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:37 am
Location: Houston, Tx
Contact:

Re: TD05 16G or VF34?

Post by Legacy777 »

I would not recommend rebuilding the turbo yourself unless you have some knowledge about rebuilding turbos. In theory if you put the shaft & compressor back on identically to how you removed it you might be able to get by without having things balanced, however the chances are pretty slim in being able to do that IMO.

I was going to attempt rebuilding an old vf11 I had and just getting the damn thing apart without destroying things was a challenge. I ended up abandoning trying to rebuild it and sold the rebuild kit.
Josh

surrealmirage.com/subaru
1990 Legacy (AWD, 6MT, & EJ22T Swap)
2020 Outback Limted XT

If you need to get a hold of me please email me rather then pm
BoneIslandScooby
First Gear
Posts: 219
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:43 am
Location: Key West, Florida

Re: TD05 16G or VF34?

Post by BoneIslandScooby »

I think by the time I need to do such a thing, I could probably afford to have Midwest Turbo do it, or just buy another low mileage turbo. Maybe at that point I can go get something nicer yet. Anybody on this board have any experience with Kinugawa or Kamak. I read on Nasioc that they have a decent track record, and both are made by the same factory. They have a TD05h 16G with twin scroll. Interesting, huh?
BoneIslandScooby
First Gear
Posts: 219
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:43 am
Location: Key West, Florida

Re: TD05 16G or VF34?

Post by BoneIslandScooby »

Let's throw another turbo into this discussion, if you don't mind. Anybody know anything about the Power Enterprises PE1818? Actual experience? I certainly haven't read everything about them, but I've read a bit. Sounds like TD05 18G like powerband, since it uses an 18G compressor wheel.
BoneIslandScooby
First Gear
Posts: 219
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:43 am
Location: Key West, Florida

Re: TD05 16G or VF34?

Post by BoneIslandScooby »

Ah, just saw it in list above.
BoneIslandScooby
First Gear
Posts: 219
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:43 am
Location: Key West, Florida

Re: TD05 16G or VF34?

Post by BoneIslandScooby »

How bad is it when an IHI Ball Bearing turbo leaks coolant at the exhaust housing? Can it be fixed?
cj91legss
Fifth Gear
Posts: 6317
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:17 am
Location: Lakewood, Wa 98439
Contact:

Re: TD05 16G or VF34?

Post by cj91legss »

Just don't run the coolant lines to it. You'll want to either have a turbo timer installed or just let the engine idle for a minute or so after hard driving. I know which turbo you're talking about too, I messaged the guy yesterday about it...
91 L-TW Wagon with a full Swap -RIP
92 SS Prefaced, GD dash swapped, 22T/205 Hybrid 20 psi - BEAST!
93 SS Bone Stock Gone!
94 TW Bone Stock Gone!
91 SS 4EAT Sold!
98 LGT 4EAT
98 LGT Wagon 4EAT
Post Reply