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 Post subject: Re: VF28 without engine management
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:21 am 
First Gear
Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2013 4:22 pm
Posts: 226
Location: Minnesnowda
I managed to get my turbo off and took out the pcv system today. Here are my findings and I welcome any advice or thoughts.

1. I checked out the turbo and all looks good on it. The VF28 even seems to have a restrictor built into the oil inlet at the base of where the line screws in. There was a lot of oil kind of chunked on the exhaust side fins. After getting it into the basement there was still enough oil that I could pour it out of the inlet side.

2. I pulled apart the entire pcv system and found that I had ice chunks that had fully clogged my f-pipe. This is a result of it taking a horizontal direction to get it around everything. I had put these lines inside and they thawed for an hour and a half. When I brought the lines to the basement and started pulling it apart it rained milky water all over. I managed to knock an ice chunk out but know there is still more in there. I had obvious leaking at the seams of my piping at joints before the f-pipe making it seem as though there would have been a pressure build up. This may be related or not but it seems my valve cover gaskets were throwing some oil after the VF28 went in as well. There was no real sign of mass quantities of oil going through the pcv lines.

3. The drain from the turbo back to the block had zero restriction and looked good. Not even considering this as a possible problem. The outlet from the turbo was free and clear of blockage as well.

4. Compression test didn't happen because I don't have the right size socket. Would try tomorrow if this seems like it is still in the equation.

My questions:

If I had a blown ring causing blow-by would the pcv off of the back block port be the only route for this oil to travel into the intake?

Could the ice blockage cause a rise in pressure that would cause the seals to fail or leak somehow? Would this rise in pressure cause the excessive oil pressure that is flooding my turbos?

I should also note that all of my problems have happened within the cold months.

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Rusty 1991 EJ22T - VF28 - '07 wrx TMIC - MBC - Invidia DP - Walbro 255


Last edited by just-rust on Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: VF28 without engine management
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:43 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:30 pm
Posts: 218
just-rust wrote:
I managed to get my turbo off and took out the pcv system today. Here are my findings and I welcome any advice or thoughts.

1. I checked out the turbo and all looks good on it. The VF28 even seems to have a restrictor built into the oil inlet at the base of where the line screws in. There was a lot of oil kind of chunked on the exhaust side fins. After getting it into the basement there was still enough oil that I could pour out of the inlet side.

2. I pulled apart the entire pcv system and found that I had ice chunks that had fully clogged my f-pipe. This is a result of it taking a horizontal direction to get it around everything. I had put these lines inside and they thawed for an hour and a half. When I brought the lines to the basement and started pulling it apart it rained milky water all over. I managed to knock an ice chunk out but know there is still more in there. I had obvious leaking at the seams of my piping at joints before the f-pipe making it seem as though there would have been a pressure build up. This may be related or not but it seems my valve cover gaskets were throwing some oil after the VF28 went in as well. There was no real sign of mass quantities of oil going through the pcv lines.

3. The drain from the turbo back to the block had zero restriction and looked good. Not even considering this as a possible problem. The outlet from the turbo was free and clear of blockage as well.

4. Compression test didn't happen because I don't have the right size socket. Would try tomorrow if this seems like it is still in the equation tomorrow.

My questions:

If I had a blown ring causing blow-by would the pcv off of the back block port be the only route for this oil to travel into the intake?

Could the ice blockage cause a rise in pressure that would cause the seals to fail or leak somehow? Would this rise in pressure cause the excessive oil pressure that is flooding my turbos?

I should also note that all of my problems have happened within the cold months.



most of my oil came through the valve cover pcv lines, I ran three catch cans, thats how I determined where the oil was coming from, and how I ruled out the turbo


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 Post subject: Re: VF28 without engine management
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:56 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2013 4:22 pm
Posts: 226
Location: Minnesnowda
How was it finding room for the three cans? I was happy to find a spot for one! If you have one, you should shoot me a pic of your set-up.

Right now my valve cover ports are connected to each other via the crossover pipe in the front and a single length of hose for the back ports. Wouldn't be getting any oil from there.

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Rusty 1991 EJ22T - VF28 - '07 wrx TMIC - MBC - Invidia DP - Walbro 255


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 Post subject: Re: VF28 without engine management
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:32 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:30 pm
Posts: 218
just-rust wrote:
How was it finding room for the three cans? I was happy to find a spot for one! If you have one, you should shoot me a pic of your set-up.

Right now my valve cover ports are connected to each other via the crossover pipe in the front and a single length of hose for the back ports. Wouldn't be getting any oil from there.

its tight, and not ideal, one will be next to the intercooler, the other two where my stock airbox went. im a na swap car so theres some differences for sure.


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 Post subject: Re: VF28 without engine management
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 3:15 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2013 4:22 pm
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Location: Minnesnowda
That's awesome that you are able to get it to fit. Just realized there are two port cans out there. Maybe you could grab one of those and save some space. Wish I had picked one of those up now. One thing I know for sure now is that I definitely won't be installing the catch can in the winter.

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 Post subject: Re: VF28 without engine management
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:59 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2013 4:22 pm
Posts: 226
Location: Minnesnowda
I found a Garrett PDF explaining set-up and problems associated with turbos concerning leakage. This listing confirms my thoughts about the pcv system causing the problems. Especially since others are using the same oil lines as I have tried with no negative consequences. I will reinstall the turbo today with an "As close to stock" system off of the back breather.

Leakage from compressor and turbine seals
- Excessively high oil pressure
- Inadequate drain – drain is too small, does not go continuously downhill, or the location of the drain inside the oil pan is located in a section that has oil slung from the crank causing oil to back up in drain tube. Always place oil drain into oil pan in a location that oil from crank is blocked by windage tray.
- Improper venting of crankcase pressure.
- Excessive crankcase pressure.
- Oil drain rotated past the recommended 35°

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 Post subject: Re: VF28 without engine management
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:16 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:30 pm
Posts: 218
just-rust wrote:
I found a Garrett PDF explaining set-up and problems associated with turbos concerning leakage. This listing confirms my thoughts about the pcv system causing the problems. Especially since others are using the same oil lines as I have tried with no negative consequences. I will reinstall the turbo today with an "As close to stock" system off of the back breather.

Leakage from compressor and turbine seals
- Excessively high oil pressure
- Inadequate drain – drain is too small, does not go continuously downhill, or the location of the drain inside the oil pan is located in a section that has oil slung from the crank causing oil to back up in drain tube. Always place oil drain into oil pan in a location that oil from crank is blocked by windage tray.
- Improper venting of crankcase pressure.
- Excessive crankcase pressure.
- Oil drain rotated past the recommended 35°

are your pcv lines close to stock setup?


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 Post subject: Re: VF28 without engine management
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:24 pm 
First Gear
Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2013 4:22 pm
Posts: 226
Location: Minnesnowda
Everything is in and it stopped smoking with the new turbo in like all other times. The difference now is that I have a more vertically run line run to the back breather and don't have any point at which any condensation could pool and freeze. The line is now as close to stock as I can have it without running it vertically up. I will take the tleg out tomorrow for a longer drive and see what happens. As with all of the other times, if it doesn't start blowing smoke right away I am in the clear. In the past, after warming the car up, I would drive it a few blocks and then it would start smoking right away.

The stock line is within spec for a ball bearing turbo. After reading, I found that a -3AN to -4AN (3/16" and 1/4") is what is recommended for a ball bearing turbo. The stock line runs OD at 1/4". The restrictor on the stock bolt is smaller than the bolt provided in the Kinuwaga line set. With people running both of these lines successfully I should be in the clear as long as my crankcase pressure doesn't build again.

I feel confident that the car will go back to normal running now. Hopefully I will be proven right! If not, I will be posting here again in about 12 days. lol

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Rusty 1991 EJ22T - VF28 - '07 wrx TMIC - MBC - Invidia DP - Walbro 255


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 Post subject: Re: VF28 without engine management
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:08 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:30 pm
Posts: 218
just-rust wrote:
Everything is in and it stopped smoking with the new turbo in like all other times. The difference now is that I have a more vertically run line run to the back breather and don't have any point at which any condensation could pool and freeze. The line is now as close to stock as I can have it without running it vertically up. I will take the tleg out tomorrow for a longer drive and see what happens. As with all of the other times, if it doesn't start blowing smoke right away I am in the clear. In the past, after warming the car up, I would drive it a few blocks and then it would start smoking right away.

The stock line is within spec for a ball bearing turbo. After reading, I found that a -3AN to -4AN (3/16" and 1/4") is what is recommended for a ball bearing turbo. The stock line runs OD at 1/4". The restrictor on the stock bolt is smaller than the bolt provided in the Kinuwaga line set. With people running both of these lines successfully I should be in the clear as long as my crankcase pressure doesn't build again.

I feel confident that the car will go back to normal running now. Hopefully I will be proven right! If not, I will be posting here again in about 12 days. lol

Fingers crossed! I got my engine installed.....now i get to remove it again haha.....turbo and non turbo flexplates differ


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 Post subject: Re: VF28 without engine management
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 1:12 pm 
Fifth Gear
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:17 am
Posts: 6233
Location: Lakewood, Wa 98439
bcmaxx wrote:
just-rust wrote:
Everything is in and it stopped smoking with the new turbo in like all other times. The difference now is that I have a more vertically run line run to the back breather and don't have any point at which any condensation could pool and freeze. The line is now as close to stock as I can have it without running it vertically up. I will take the tleg out tomorrow for a longer drive and see what happens. As with all of the other times, if it doesn't start blowing smoke right away I am in the clear. In the past, after warming the car up, I would drive it a few blocks and then it would start smoking right away.

The stock line is within spec for a ball bearing turbo. After reading, I found that a -3AN to -4AN (3/16" and 1/4") is what is recommended for a ball bearing turbo. The stock line runs OD at 1/4". The restrictor on the stock bolt is smaller than the bolt provided in the Kinuwaga line set. With people running both of these lines successfully I should be in the clear as long as my crankcase pressure doesn't build again.

I feel confident that the car will go back to normal running now. Hopefully I will be proven right! If not, I will be posting here again in about 12 days. lol

Fingers crossed! I got my engine installed.....now i get to remove it again haha.....turbo and non turbo flexplates differ


Oh man, I've been there........

_________________
91 L-TW Wagon with a full Swap -RIP
92 SS Prefaced, GD dash swapped, 22T/205 Hybrid 20 psi - BEAST!
93 SS Bone Stock Gone!
94 TW Bone Stock Gone!
91 SS 4EAT Sold!
98 LGT 4EAT
98 LGT Wagon 4EAT


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 Post subject: Re: VF28 without engine management
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:44 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2013 4:22 pm
Posts: 226
Location: Minnesnowda
cj91legss wrote:
bcmaxx wrote:
just-rust wrote:
Everything is in and it stopped smoking with the new turbo in like all other times. The difference now is that I have a more vertically run line run to the back breather and don't have any point at which any condensation could pool and freeze. The line is now as close to stock as I can have it without running it vertically up. I will take the tleg out tomorrow for a longer drive and see what happens. As with all of the other times, if it doesn't start blowing smoke right away I am in the clear. In the past, after warming the car up, I would drive it a few blocks and then it would start smoking right away.

The stock line is within spec for a ball bearing turbo. After reading, I found that a -3AN to -4AN (3/16" and 1/4") is what is recommended for a ball bearing turbo. The stock line runs OD at 1/4". The restrictor on the stock bolt is smaller than the bolt provided in the Kinuwaga line set. With people running both of these lines successfully I should be in the clear as long as my crankcase pressure doesn't build again.

I feel confident that the car will go back to normal running now. Hopefully I will be proven right! If not, I will be posting here again in about 12 days. lol

Fingers crossed! I got my engine installed.....now i get to remove it again haha.....turbo and non turbo flexplates differ


Oh man, I've been there........



Just doing a turbo swap seems pretty good compared to having to pull the engine! I forgot my DP gasket and had to retrace. Can't imagine all that goes into pulling the motor!

CJ, I found your build thread. Looks like a fun build. I am going to have to read through it in the next couple of days!

Also, I wanted to post this link. This gives some great ground rules and information concerning turbos and their applications and rules of thumb as outlined by Garrett. Wish it had been the first thing I had found in my searches:

https://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobyg ... zation.pdf

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Rusty 1991 EJ22T - VF28 - '07 wrx TMIC - MBC - Invidia DP - Walbro 255


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 Post subject: Re: VF28 without engine management
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:47 pm 
Fifth Gear
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:17 am
Posts: 6233
Location: Lakewood, Wa 98439
Its not as hard as you would think. Personally, I think it's more difficult swapping out transmissions and I'm prone to swapping those to.....

I give this transmission 4-5 months :-D

_________________
91 L-TW Wagon with a full Swap -RIP
92 SS Prefaced, GD dash swapped, 22T/205 Hybrid 20 psi - BEAST!
93 SS Bone Stock Gone!
94 TW Bone Stock Gone!
91 SS 4EAT Sold!
98 LGT 4EAT
98 LGT Wagon 4EAT


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 Post subject: Re: VF28 without engine management
PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 3:53 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2013 4:22 pm
Posts: 226
Location: Minnesnowda
I am 21 days in and have had trips up to 130 miles of hard driving in -20 to -30 degree weather and all the way up to 60 degrees. I believe all of the elements for failure had presented itself throughout the last 21 days and the turbo hasn't leaked a drop.

I am happy to report there is no signs of oil leakage anywhere and I believe that the change to my pcv system cured the problem. Pay special attention to the pcv routing in cold weather climates. Drainage from the hoses is key with all of the condensate that flows through the lines. Don't learn the hard way like I had to!

Next step will be to put the 28 back on and see if the seals reset and I don't need a rebuild. I am thinking it should be fine. Once again, fingers crossed!

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Rusty 1991 EJ22T - VF28 - '07 wrx TMIC - MBC - Invidia DP - Walbro 255


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 Post subject: Re: VF28 without engine management
PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 6:09 pm 
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just-rust wrote:
I am 21 days in and have had trips up to 130 miles of hard driving in -20 to -30 degree weather and all the way up to 60 degrees. I believe all of the elements for failure had presented itself throughout the last 21 days and the turbo hasn't leaked a drop.

I am happy to report there is no signs of oil leakage anywhere and I believe that the change to my pcv system cured the problem. Pay special attention to the pcv routing in cold weather climates. Drainage from the hoses is key with all of the condensate that flows through the lines. Don't learn the hard way like I had to!

Next step will be to put the 28 back on and see if the seals reset and I don't need a rebuild. I am thinking it should be fine. Once again, fingers crossed!

thats just awesome!


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 Post subject: Re: VF28 without engine management
PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 8:32 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:09 pm
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Location: Rochester, WA
Great! That's a good reminder of why the PCV system is important.

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 Post subject: Re: VF28 without engine management
PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2015 7:15 pm 
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Location: Minnesnowda
Thanks Alphius!

Well, I went ahead and dropped the VF28 back in to see if in fact the seals were compromised from all of the oil that was leaking through as a result of my frozen pcv lines. I am happy to report that these seals are very resilient and I have driven about 15 miles so far with zero leaked oil into my intake and as a result no smoke out of the tailpipe which is a relief.

With that said, I have three back up turbos now. lol I really like the feel of this 28 on my set-up. Should be smooth sailing now!

*Quick update - Now it has been 100's of miles and no signs of any problems.*

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