Cessna car prototype model - redesign

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evolutionmovement
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Post by evolutionmovement »

I'm pissed because the only unrelated woman I'll ever give a shit about tried to kill herself Saturday night, my fucking book has been delayed yet again, I have recurring mice getting into the cinder block outside wall to my bedroom (which is partially underground as my house is built into a hill) and it's too fucking cold for them to get into the new bait trap I set so they can fucking die, these mice have brought up a foundation problem that needs to be fixed, I want to see about getting the second book published, start this stupid Cessna project, and go to sweep school (for cables, not brooms, though by the dirt on my kitchen floor I could probably use a class in that as well), and they won't let me hunt down and kill all the piece-of-shit child molesters and rapists that seem to hide under every crack in the sidewalks.

Mainly it's the first thing that's got me pissed. I might not be able to do anything to stop it next time and I really can't argue with her about it as she has perfectly valid reasons to want to leave. I really feel like a selfish prick to want her to stick around. My brain attacks me with things far less horrible and look how little I care about life.

I used to work on boats so I'm all too familiar with electrolytic corrosion. I'm going to try design around the use of simple alloy pieces as much as possible.
Midnight in a Perfect World on Amazon or order anywhere. The first book in a quartet chronicling the rise of a man from angry criminal to philanthropist. Midnight... is a distopic noirish novel featuring 'Duchess', a modified 1990 Subaru Legacy wagon.
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Post by biggreen96 »

Sorry to post a lame vid, definitely the last thing you need right now.... but try your hardest to make this project happen. I think it's cool, and great you are sharing it with us. I have a pet project too, but want to get it to actually fucking work before I unveil. Guess I'm too afraid of failure.
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Post by SubaruNation »

well i know the world would be a much safer place if you were a politician! eh? eh? :D

i just wrote some opera ( the black lady) motiviational business but i figure you're a smart guy (seriously smart) and you know what to do and whatever i say you probably know, so it wont have much impact.

we're here for ya on though, and i personally like reading this stuff.

you'll get through it! and we know you can finish this project, you already have models built... thats like half the work

:)
Zach - Legacy Frankenstin
93forestpearl wrote:Keep up the good work. You'll never know what you are capable of unless you push yourself.
evolutionmovement
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Post by evolutionmovement »

Goddess bless loose leaf tea. It's really one of the great things in the world. Oolong ginger right now.

I have two other models I'm working on. They're mostly completed except for final paint and lights. I thought of the P-51 Mustang inspired one last year then moved to this Cessna idea thinking it would be easier, got pissed after talking to MA's idiot DMV about registering such a thing, and realized that what they didn't like about the Cessna worked in favor of my original idea (namely, tandem seating and a lack of traditional doors). By this point I had become intrigued by the NACA cowl that streamlined and allowed for better engine cooling of radial engined aircraft and could work that onto a vehicle, using the cowl to cover the radiator and A/C condenser for excellent cooling, low drag (also allowing me to envelope everything else within bodywork), and a resulting look unlike any other road vehicle (think Vought F4 Corsair or Focke-Wulf 190 from the back of the cockpit forward). Then I re-realized it was a difficult, expensive project and I work so slowly that I'd be the last man alive in the world were I to live long enough to complete it. So, figuring out the windshield problem (simple - a flat central safety glass panel. Dumbass.) and now inspired to do some cool things with an aircraft cockpit and its large dash panel, I returned to the Cessna. So I've got models of all of them.
Midnight in a Perfect World on Amazon or order anywhere. The first book in a quartet chronicling the rise of a man from angry criminal to philanthropist. Midnight... is a distopic noirish novel featuring 'Duchess', a modified 1990 Subaru Legacy wagon.
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Post by entirelyturbo »

I'll not make a big long useless post, but just say that I'm sorry to hear of your troubles Steve.
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Post by magicmike »

saw this while browsing and it reminded me of your project.

Image
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Post by SubaruNation »

i saw that in car?and driver?
or was it R&T..

they're the same thing anyway.

does look similar
Zach - Legacy Frankenstin
93forestpearl wrote:Keep up the good work. You'll never know what you are capable of unless you push yourself.
evolutionmovement
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Post by evolutionmovement »

The guy developed that along the same lines of a kit airplane. They're only selling them in CA right now.
Midnight in a Perfect World on Amazon or order anywhere. The first book in a quartet chronicling the rise of a man from angry criminal to philanthropist. Midnight... is a distopic noirish novel featuring 'Duchess', a modified 1990 Subaru Legacy wagon.
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Re: Cessna car prototype model - redesign

Post by kimokalihi »

I found a car that closely represents what you have set out to design. At least I think it does. Gets 282 MPG and has reached as high as 317 MPG on one trip. 1 Cylinder diesel mid mounted engine. Carbon fiber body. 6 speed auto and gull wing chassis.

I wish I could have this car. I imagine if they did put it into production (they won't) it would be astronomically priced.

http://www.autos.ca/auto-brands/feature-vw-1-litre-car

Image
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evolutionmovement
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Re: Cessna car prototype model - redesign

Post by evolutionmovement »

The VW One Liter was maybe the only thing I ever agreed with Piech about, but I can't remember if the GX3 was his. The One Liter is really a modern Messerschmitt KR175. It's different, but about the closest thing in concept to my Tigershark design, but it's in the way that an Insight is close to a Lotus 340R.
Midnight in a Perfect World on Amazon or order anywhere. The first book in a quartet chronicling the rise of a man from angry criminal to philanthropist. Midnight... is a distopic noirish novel featuring 'Duchess', a modified 1990 Subaru Legacy wagon.
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Re: Cessna car prototype model - redesign

Post by kimokalihi »

Haha. It's pretty kickass I think.
98 Metro Hatch Daily Driver :)
91 SS EJ20G Engine/Tranny/Diff Swap Build Thread Here
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evolutionmovement
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Re: Cessna car prototype model - redesign

Post by evolutionmovement »

I like it as well. Just should have a sliding canopy instead of a flip one, which also makes for a convertible if VW can be trusted to engineer it to handle the stress of being driven with it open.

>>RANT ALERT<<

I also like the XL1, but "gear head"* commentary about it and the One Litre showed that they didn't because it didn't look like everything else they're used to seeing or can't perform the duties of a 7-passenger SUV or isn't as fast as some lame Generica R exotic. For some reason, in their feeble minds there needs to be a cost savings that more than balances out the higher prices of these advanced designs, yet these monkeys need no justification argument to accept the increased price (and running costs) of the latest pointless, seen-it-a-thousand-times sports car or performance version of an overweight, probably automatic transmissioned, road-isolated gas guzzler with more power than could be used on a street yet is too compromised to be competitive on a track. Ladies and gentlemen, I present the people that bring down the average for penis length. Not that I hate performance cars, only the marketing department spawned "me too" ones that make little sense at all and are, yet, still accepted as "real cars" over high efficiency, high tech vehicles like those two VW's. Some of us want high tech efficiency and it's not necessarily about cost savings as much as it is an enjoyment of having something different and high tech (or people like me who drive 40k miles or more a year to whom, any increase in efficiency really does add up). We find that driving can have an appeal beyond occasional, couple-second increases in mainly longitudinal g forces. Primarily, exotics are posing machines as they're too wide, tough to see out of, expensive, and fast to actually use the performance of, so I don't understand what's so wrong about a different kind of posing vehicle that actually has the practical real-world payback of cheap running costs in exchange for lacking in straight line performance (high efficiency cars, usually being lightweight, have the potential to handle well, providing those dreadful eco tires are ditched) that can ever more rarely be accessed.

In the case of my designs, performance isn't really an issue either and I've designed them to be fun in the real world of morons, traffic, cops, giant vehicles that block the view ahead, suicidal pedestrians, poorly maintained roads, and miscellaneous debris. Most of these regressive "gear heads"* would still hate it because they're different or because they lack the ability to come up with something that isn't lame themselves. Of course, I'm in a similar boat as I don't do too badly, but it's still not well enough to fund building these vehicles.

* Though they seem to be a majority, or are at least an extremely vocal one, I don't consider them true gear heads as that, for me, would be someone with an appreciation for all mechanical transportation devices. It's the fascination with mechanized transportation in all its aspects, good, bad, or ugly that should mark us, not a rigid adherence to only what an insecure 12 year old thinks is cool.
Midnight in a Perfect World on Amazon or order anywhere. The first book in a quartet chronicling the rise of a man from angry criminal to philanthropist. Midnight... is a distopic noirish novel featuring 'Duchess', a modified 1990 Subaru Legacy wagon.
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Re: Cessna car prototype model - redesign

Post by beatersubi »

Steve, it sounds like you'd appreciate and/or enjoy a Prius, series hybrid (Fisker Karma), or something more like a practical Lotus 7 kit.
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evolutionmovement
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Re: Cessna car prototype model - redesign

Post by evolutionmovement »

I don't like the Prius for myself because it's not fun to drive, feel that parallel hybrids are a dead end, is too complicated, and isn't aerodynamically efficient enough to justify its ugly. My car designs are very much like enclosed Lotus 7s with very efficient aerodynamics. Can't afford a Fisker and they're too large for me. I like them, though, and respect that Fisker is actually bringing it to market, which is a feat that very few (much less the majority of those who attempt it) seem to understand the full of scope of. It's also complicated. Seeing as nobody will build what I want, I'll keep buying the cheapest acceptably OK car to drive that's efficient and can carry my shit for work until/if I get the chance to build what I want myself. And if a few other people want them, I'll see about that then. Liability, though, even as just a component car builder, is probably something beyond what I'd want to deal with.
Midnight in a Perfect World on Amazon or order anywhere. The first book in a quartet chronicling the rise of a man from angry criminal to philanthropist. Midnight... is a distopic noirish novel featuring 'Duchess', a modified 1990 Subaru Legacy wagon.
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Re: Cessna car prototype model - redesign

Post by beatersubi »

Have you considered a series hybrid drivetrain for the tigreshark? If the car is light enough, it wouldn't take a whole lot of electric motor to motivate it to sporting velocities. And a smaller motor would require a smaller generator and engine to drive it. A smaller engine would allow more flexibility with packaging and overall design.

What do you think of the new honda hybrid, the cr-z (i think)?
93 legacy wagon L, 22T swapped (TW imitator) now with five forward speeds. (Gone, but never forgotten)
johndrivesabox wrote: Rally, my kyboard is brok, his has nohing o do wih h liquor.
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evolutionmovement
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Re: Cessna car prototype model - redesign

Post by evolutionmovement »

I've designed the chassis with (hopefully) the ability to adapt to change to full electric. Different gas engines would fit and there is room under the floor and in front of the firewall for batteries (or would be without the transmission, driveshaft, and exhaust going through there, which wouldn't be needed with hub motors or a motor mounted directly on the rear differential), but I'm not sure a hybrid set up would work. Packaging a gas engine isn't a problem, but batteries along with a gas tank, engine, and drivetrain would be. About half of the length of the vehicle is a large space for components, but the body is narrow. That said, were I to produce these, I would sell them as chassis without drivetrains (like Factory Five Racing), so maybe a really clever person could manage to fit a pre-existing system. Building one from scratch is way beyond my capability in money and expertise for electronic controls. A couple departures from normal car design allow for a myriad of benefits, but also a new set of limitations, so I'm not sure how viable it would be to fit a hybrid system designed for the packaging of an ordinary car (or if it would be necessary, as a modern small DI engine with the taller gearing the weight and better aerodynamics would allow would do very well on gas or diesel if one was to use the new Mazda Skyactiv engine coming out). My worst estimates put the vehicle at around 2100 lbs, so even a very small engine, which would also result in lower weight, should motivate the vehicle decently. I designed it for simplicity, so a hybrid was thought of, but not seriously considered.

I like the CR-Z, but think it would be better with just a DI gas engine (if Honda didn't suck now and actually made one) with stop/start as it should end up faster with maybe only a small penalty in mileage, if any. Then maybe they could build the hybrid version with a system that doesn't suck like their IMA system. Really, my criticism with the car would just be the IMA system. The idea behind it wouldn't be bad if cars weren't so damn heavy. Because the engine is so small, it needs the electric assist very often just to motivate the car or even to keep up moderate speed against headwinds and inclines on the highway (this is my experience with a Civic Hybrid, so the CR-Z would be better, though similar). Also, the gearing (though typical for Honda) is too low, which is unavoidable with the average aerodynamic efficiency and weight again, resulting in more fuel used at cruise as well. It also never runs off the electric motor alone. Unfortunately, there's a limit to efficiency gains from downsizing an engine and a rising trade off in performance the smaller you go and the electric assist of the IMA doesn't really make up for either one. As a reference, my mother's regular Civic sedan averages only a few mpg less than my brother-in-law's Hybrid, but has tires that actually grip the road, a useable trunk, acceptable acceleration, cheaper purchase price, and even trade-in value (my brother-in-law went to multiple dealers to try to trade it in, but nobody would even get close to the BB value of the car, which is in good condition, yet regular Civic's hold their value very well). So, I think the CR-Z is a good car in search of a more deserving drivetrain. Props to them for making it with a stick shift, though.

My 2012 Focus rated at 36 mpg highway with the stick shift and sport package routinely beats that on a combined cycle that includes a good amount of traffic and highway speeds between 70 and 80 (a higher speed than the EPA tests use to get their numbers) over a tank of gas. Worst tank I've had was over 34 mpg. My brother-in-law hasn't averaged more than 40 under similar conditions, but that's not necessarily a hybrid issue (as many disappointed people—Honda lost a class action suit about it—seem to think of all hybrids after their experience) as it is Honda's IMA system.
Midnight in a Perfect World on Amazon or order anywhere. The first book in a quartet chronicling the rise of a man from angry criminal to philanthropist. Midnight... is a distopic noirish novel featuring 'Duchess', a modified 1990 Subaru Legacy wagon.
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Re: Cessna car prototype model - redesign

Post by beatersubi »

If those crazy granola-heads out in Portland can build all electric drag racers, how hard could it really be? What about a small diesel engine? Maybe something like a 1L 3cyl turbo Yanmar, or the like. It would be very efficient at cruising loads and still have enough power to move the light car. I'm not trying to pick apart your design, just tyring to offer (hopefully) helpful suggestions.

I'm not that familiar with Honda's hybrid system. I do think it unfortunate that they're unable to match the fuel efficiency of the original CRX hf which routinely got over 40mpg and sometimes up to 50. But I'm sure a good amount of the weight gain in the CR-z can be attributed to gov't mandated (read: not completely necessary) safety items.

A co-worker of mine has a commuter KIA that regularly gets right around 40mpg. And it seems to be reliable enough. I think the Koreans are doing to the Japs what they did to the US a few decades ago.
93 legacy wagon L, 22T swapped (TW imitator) now with five forward speeds. (Gone, but never forgotten)
johndrivesabox wrote: Rally, my kyboard is brok, his has nohing o do wih h liquor.
Originalcyn wrote:Apparently everyone hates Gabe.
evolutionmovement
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Re: Cessna car prototype model - redesign

Post by evolutionmovement »

All electric is pretty simple and even the controllers can be bought off the shelf (where your wallet's the limit), but hybrids are a different animal. Now, maybe it's just BS because I don't know for myself, but everything I read about series hybrids states that the control systems are very complicated, even more so than parallel systems like Toyotas. Other than monitoring and controlling charge/discharge rates of the the multiple battery pack modules and their temperature (in the case of lithium ion, at least) and brake regeneration, it seems like it would be simple enough to switch the engine on and off as necessary, but I'd be wrong according to what I've read (or that's more difficult than I think). The biggest obstacle, though, is the cost of high end gear, even just for straight electric. Motors are reasonable and controllers aren't horrible, but good battery packs are prohibitive. I'd really only be interested in lithium phosphate (made by A123 not too far from me) and they're money. For drag racing, the range is small, so there aren't a lot of batteries needed. Lead acids are probably acceptable in that case, especially where they can discharge damn fast (unlike lithium ion). The idea for my car is to have an unlimited range anyway, so I'm not interested in electric personally. I also prefer the simplest solution, so I'd prefer a gas engine (possibly a diesel) to a hybrid and such a system with stop/start shouldn't be far in terms of mileage for much less cost and complexity and better packaging.
Midnight in a Perfect World on Amazon or order anywhere. The first book in a quartet chronicling the rise of a man from angry criminal to philanthropist. Midnight... is a distopic noirish novel featuring 'Duchess', a modified 1990 Subaru Legacy wagon.
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