Global Warming Sucks

This is for non-Subaru related topics. Keep it realistic please.

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vrg3
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Post by vrg3 »

Yup. So it should cost more to produce than it can be sold for.
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Post by Subtle »

It is subsidized by the taxpayer, and of course the big agriculture companies get the lolly.

It is amazing that the scam still has wide support.
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Post by evolutionmovement »

It's disgusting. Agricultural "management" in this country is one of the things that pisses me off most. And there's a lot of things that piss me off. The whole thing is a scam that hurts the tax payer, developing nations (you know, the ones that tend to breed religious fanatics since they are left with no hope for a future), technological developments in farming, drinking water, anything that lives in the water, farm species diversity, and sustainability of the land. It also contributes to obesity as the over production of corn results in the extensive use of corn syrup in foods as an alternative to healthier sugar (the prices of which are kept artificially inflated through import restrictions - a gift to the sugar farmers to make up for the gift to corn).

People like to think happy thoughts about framers, picturing the guy down the street with his little market, but those guys are the insignificant exception (% of production). They don't even get more than a token of the subsidies - it's the industrial scum bags that are right up there with big oil and now they're apparently in the same business.
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Post by SubaruNation »

good post!
and the total amount of corn given to ethanol production each year is causing food prices to increase, because farmers no longer want to produce crops other than corn b/c they can't make as much.

plus all the corn given away could be used to either..
A. feed people in need (I hate corn, probably not a good idea?)

or B. leave the *@!#*^ Corn there and let it absorb some of the co2 emissions, rather than becoming emissions.

and another rant, i hate how car companies are marketing that GREATER MPG= good for the environment.
that is complete BS, it's the amount of gasses emitted that matters in the long run. not how efficient your car is. i mean it's still important but there are motorcycles that get gr8 MPG but put out more toxins than a Caddilac escilade..
[/rant]
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Post by evolutionmovement »

MPG is directly relatable to CO2 emissions - the main concern of everyone right now (partly because all other emissions have been so drastically reduced, partly political). It's the reason the EPA fought California about their mpg requirements - they realized it was a back-door way to reduce emissions, which is the EPA's job. Why would the EPA care if CA can force car companies to sell cleaner cars through the force of the size of their market? Is it simply ego or does it have to do with W's admin appointing douches to head the EPA? It's like the fox guarding the hen house.

Motorcycles have very loose emissions standards that they have to meet, so that's why they pollute more/gallon than cars. Boats are even worse, but they're getting better (2-strokes are nearly dead and FI is becoming standard, but they'll never be that clean as the USCG won't allow converters for risk of fire). Aircraft REALLY suck - most light aircraft are powered by overpriced shit air-cooled engines designed in the thirties, they dump their pollutants in the higher atmosphere, and jets are the worst. However, jets can at least be designed to run on something similar to biodiesel (if they'll bother to do it). Biodiesel does use an ethanol additive to prevent gelling, but it's a small percentage compared to that 85% shit they're trying to push on cars. Ethanol can't be the only additive that would work either. Hell, it may not really apply iin the case of jets since the requirements would be different. At any rate, the FAA won't let anything change quickly even if there were an alternate available right now (which there might be). Not condemning the FAA - aircraft safety is an area I'd rather them be very careful about.

Most of the highest mileage cars also qualify as ULEV and PZEV.
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Post by SubaruNation »

right, then explain motorcycles to me please
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Post by evolutionmovement »

Motorcycle emissions have only changed in 2006. First time since 1980, when 2-strokes were eliminated from road bikes. The current standards call for a big reduction in HC (likely leading to the elimination of carbs and distributors) and NOx for the first time (very likely requiring cats for Tier I, almost definitely to meet Tier II). At about the same time, the Euro regulations are also going up. Amazingly enough, they'll actually be somewhat more stringent. Sort of. The way emissions are measured for the Euro standard is different from the EPA's, so it's tough to quantify exactly. Eventually, the EPA plans on adopting a world standard for measuring emissions.

So you are seeing things change for motorcycles, but only very recently. How they stack up to contemporary car emissions, I'd have to research, but I'd bet cars are still far more strict. Scooters, having under 280cc have much less strict standards and off-highway vehicles like ATVs, snow mobiles, etc., and jet skis are minimal to non-existent.
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Post by SubaruNation »

yeah china right now has a serious problem with emissions from scooters (electric & Gas) because everyone and their sister's uncle has one instead of a bike...causing alot of inner city smog problems.
clearly this is very small compared to china as a whole (problems) ha ha. if we got rid of china, we could burn off as much of whatever we wanted and it would slow "global Warming" tremendously.
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Post by vrg3 »

Zach - Like Steve says, fuel economy does relate directly to carbon dioxide output. It doesn't relate to other pollutants, like those that cause smog. But with regard to greenhouse warming, fuel economy is very important.
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Post by SubaruNation »

ok, with cars at least.
i got ya
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Post by vrg3 »

Not just with cars. With all fossil-fuel-burning engines. You can't compare MPG with one fuel to MPG with another fuel, though; for example, I believe one gallon of diesel fuel has more carbon in it than one gallon of gasoline.
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Post by evolutionmovement »

I'm almost positive Vikash is right - diesel contains more carbon atoms than gasoline. At its most basic, fossil fuels are hydrocarbons - chemical compounds made up of carbon and hydrogen with a certain number of atoms of each depending on the type of fuel. When you introduce air to burn the fuel in an engine, you make a number of new combinations with the new elements. Since air contains primarily nitrogen and oxygen, most of your resultant emissions are combos of them all.

HC (unburned hydrocarbons, reduced through better metering of fuel per unit of air. HCs, running rich, however, does result in a cooler combustion, which means less NOx[see below].)

H2O & HO (water and hydrogen peroxide - obviously not regulated)

NOx (nitrogen oxides of various combinations. A smog component reduced by catalytic converters. You get more of these in a hotter combustion chamber. Diesels, of course, make a lot of this).

CO and CO2 (carbon monoxide and dioxide. Carbon monoxide is converted to dioxide in another catalytic converter).

Particulates (ash, sulfates, and such primarily from diesel [the black soot]. Gasoline also can produce particulates, but they are much smaller so they can't be seen by the naked eye).
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Post by vrg3 »

I didn't think hydrogen peroxide -- which is actually H2O2 -- was really present in significant quantities in exhaust gas. It's too eager to reduce. In fact, with certain types of engines, isn't it sometimes sprayed into exhaust gas to oxidize hydrocarbons or carbon monoxide?
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Post by evolutionmovement »

Not that I know of. There isn't much hydrogen peroxide at all - (from the break down of NO3? I'm not much of a chemist and this hot chick, Cathy, sat next to me in my HS class so I never maximized my learning time there and it's been 15 years to top it.), but I mention it since I sometimes joke about the healing properties of car exhaust. Some of the new diesels are injecting urea (NH3 for those following) into the exhaust to convert the NOx into nitrogen, water, and CO2, but that's all I know of.
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Post by SubaruNation »

vrg3 wrote:Not just with cars. With all fossil-fuel-burning engines. You can't compare MPG with one fuel to MPG with another fuel, though; for example, I believe one gallon of diesel fuel has more carbon in it than one gallon of gasoline.
yeah i know that, i was using the motorcycle/SUV example from before.
they both use the same fuel, unless you take octane into account ?unsure?
then like steve said, you have to take restrictions into account also.

i'm unsure i just thought i'd bring up the example.
you guys know more than me :roll:

i just read an article awhile ago about an electric crotch rocket motorcycle powered solely by batteries, and in the article it talked about how the motorcycle out out more emissions than an SUV with greater MPG. this is b/c of the emissions standards, like what you guys said
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Post by evolutionmovement »

Not if it's electric. If it's electric, then you'd have to take into account what the power station that generates the electricity is. IIRC, a PZEV and possibly a ULEV (I think the only distinction in some cases is the extended warranty on emissions components for the PZEV), are considered to be lower emissions than an electric car charged from a grid that gets its supply from coal. However, I'm not sure how that's qualified as electrics get variable mileage out of their batteries. Possibly, they just compare kw/hrs needed to charge a battery and compare that to the amount of energy in a gallon of gas, but that's barely better than just making shit up.
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Post by SubaruNation »

evolutionmovement wrote:Not if it's electric. If it's electric, then you'd have to take into account what the power station that generates the electricity is. IIRC, a PZEV and possibly a ULEV (I think the only distinction in some cases is the extended warranty on emissions components for the PZEV), are considered to be lower emissions than an electric car charged from a grid that gets its supply from coal. However, I'm not sure how that's qualified as electrics get variable mileage out of their batteries. Possibly, they just compare kw/hrs needed to charge a battery and compare that to the amount of energy in a gallon of gas, but that's barely better than just making shit up.
yep! guess i forgot to include that trade off stuff,

and making shitup is what they do best!
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Post by vrg3 »

Steve - Hm, apparently I misremembered -- it's injected into the intake to allow finer closed-loop control than simply manipulating fuel input alone:

http://www.stormingmedia.us/00/0038/D003810.html

Zach - But an SUV does contribute significantly more to the greenhouse effect than a motorcycle, even if the motorcycle has no emissions equipment and the SUV is a ULEV. The key here is that overall emissions includes much more than just greenhouse gases. Like I said near the top of this thread, catalytic converters actually increase greenhouse emissions.
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Post by evolutionmovement »

That looks like a patent application. If it's in use, it's not in any application I'm familiar with. It also sounds more like a short-term deal as on-board storage for the H2O2 would require a lot of volume otherwise. Might not be a bad idea for short range piston aircraft, but more along the lines of power than for emissions. Not that the likely Lycoming or Continental junk in question could probably handle the power increase. It sounds like another NOx to CO2 compromise - reduce one, increase the other. I also wonder if that extra hydrogen would cause an increase in HCs or if they're unlikely to bond in that environment.
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Post by SubaruNation »

vrg3 wrote: catalytic converters actually increase greenhouse emissions.
?? oh i didn't read that, WTF then Y are they in cars?

you put more gasses "in general" into the atmosphere by taking the cats out though right?

i can't get too technical because i don't know chemistry.. :roll:
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Post by evolutionmovement »

You can't eliminate matter - what goes in comes out, however you can change how they come out. Think of it like an orgy - a bunch of couples come in, but they leave with different partners. The measures you have to take to reduce NOx (a harmful smog component) increases CO2 (a natural emission of damn near everything) and vise versa. Presently, the only way to reduce both is to reduce the NOx with a converter and burn less fuel (less carbon in the mix).

Back to the orgy (catalytic converters), the elements like to pair up with certain partners or alone. NOx doesn't mind being single and they can be broken down to their base. Poisonous carbon monoxide will pair up with another oxygen (threesome) to make CO2. HCs become H2O (or really, H4O2) and CO2. CO2 is a greenhouse gas, but it's natural. It may be added to the environment unnaturally, but it's not reasonably poisonous. High NOx comes from a hotter environment (leaner fuel mix), so there are naturally less HC (unburned fuel) getting out. The reverse is also true, but converting either results in more CO2.
Last edited by evolutionmovement on Sun Feb 10, 2008 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by SubaruNation »

and with that comes less power, and less efficiency right>?
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Post by evolutionmovement »

The efficiency of an engine is dependent on many parameters, but basically restricted to an upper limit. Ignoring that, in an identical engine, the leaner, NOx producing set-up would yield more power and use less fuel, increasing efficiency, but more potential for reliability problems as they run closer to detonation. But of course, in the case of diesel, this is exactly what is needed for them to run. As a result, diesels are more efficient than gas engines. It also helps that their increased torque at low speeds allows for taller gear ratios which further reduces fuel use (but doesn't affect the efficiency of the engine itself, just the vehicle). Higher HCs means you're wasting gas and making less power, but it's 'safer' for the engine. Within reason - it also causes carbon build up.
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Scholarly reference book on climaate change.

Post by Subtle »

Interesting title

"Unstoppable
Every 1,500 Years
Global Warming"

by

S. Fred Singer and Dennis T. Avery

Updated 2008
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Re: Scholarly reference book on climaate change.

Post by SubaruNation »

Subtle wrote:Interesting title

"Unstoppable
Every 1,500 Years
Global Warming"

by

S. Fred Singer and Dennis T. Avery

Updated 2008
book or whAT?
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93forestpearl wrote:Keep up the good work. You'll never know what you are capable of unless you push yourself.
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