Global Warming Sucks
Moderator: Moderators
who benefits from the idea that humans have had no influence on the climate since the industrial revolution? who benefits from the idea that humans have had an influence on the climate? what are their ultimate reasons for developing these ideas? which of those groups have more money?
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evolutionmovement
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Oh no, there are no pollution issues at all. It's all an evil liberal conspiracy! I'll gladly suck on an exhaust pipe, drink mercury, and bathe in xylene. The climate change isn't the big problem - it's the chemicals and unsustainable agricultural practices combined with a huge population. There's a monster behind the door and this debate is an argument over whether the door is mauve or sandstone. I'm not saying all the nay-sayers are wrong as there are plenty of outrageous doomsday predictors on the other side of the debate. As usual, the truth is somewhere in the middle. There is a climate change, many people will suffer from it, but I don't think it's going to reduce us to a stone age culture or cause or extinction. Not on its own at least. Our own stupidity could get the best of us yet.
As far as global warming goes, I personally think the climate change is mostly a natural cycle that we've maybe helped along a few years and we're now trying to close the barn doors after the cows are gone (the hormone-filled, animal byproduct-fed cows). My fear is that too much interest is being paid to a part of the cycle we have little control over while the definitive man-made issues are neglected or that we are trying to prevent an inevitable change (whatever the cause) when we should be trying to adapt to it. Rebuilding New Orleans is the type of complete stupidity I'd normally only expect from a 3rd world country. Blame the flood on the oil companies' tunnels, the army corp of engineers' poor construction techniques, the French for choosing the location, the introduction of the nutria, or too many fat people weighing the land down - none of it matters. The place got wiped out and it will be wiped out again. Probably soon. We're wasting money we don't have out of sentiment and stupid stubbornness to resist change. Those are not the qualities of adaptation that have seen our physically weak species survive. Now that we've established ourselves so forcefully we need to anticipate change more readily as adaptation now requires more than just throwing our few belongings on our backs and finding another cave. If we don't, we may need that cave after all.
As far as global warming goes, I personally think the climate change is mostly a natural cycle that we've maybe helped along a few years and we're now trying to close the barn doors after the cows are gone (the hormone-filled, animal byproduct-fed cows). My fear is that too much interest is being paid to a part of the cycle we have little control over while the definitive man-made issues are neglected or that we are trying to prevent an inevitable change (whatever the cause) when we should be trying to adapt to it. Rebuilding New Orleans is the type of complete stupidity I'd normally only expect from a 3rd world country. Blame the flood on the oil companies' tunnels, the army corp of engineers' poor construction techniques, the French for choosing the location, the introduction of the nutria, or too many fat people weighing the land down - none of it matters. The place got wiped out and it will be wiped out again. Probably soon. We're wasting money we don't have out of sentiment and stupid stubbornness to resist change. Those are not the qualities of adaptation that have seen our physically weak species survive. Now that we've established ourselves so forcefully we need to anticipate change more readily as adaptation now requires more than just throwing our few belongings on our backs and finding another cave. If we don't, we may need that cave after all.
Midnight in a Perfect World on Amazon or order anywhere. The first book in a quartet chronicling the rise of a man from angry criminal to philanthropist. Midnight... is a distopic noirish novel featuring 'Duchess', a modified 1990 Subaru Legacy wagon.
In 1900 all levels of government were taking around 5% of GDP to operate.206er wrote:who benefits from the idea that humans have had no influence on the climate since the industrial revolution? who benefits from the idea that humans have had an influence on the climate? what are their ultimate reasons for developing these ideas? which of those groups have more money?
Now it is around 40%, and to use the description of an "authoritarian" system from physics: "That which isn't prohibited is compulsory".
This pretty well explains the objectives of most experiments in government from communism to socialism to the current intense persuasion to make more things either compulsory or prohibited.
The "health" of the planet is just another greedy attempt for yet more power.
This is why governments are throwing so much grant money to researchers that will tout the story that sometning must be done about the weather.
Subtle (normally aspirated engines suck):
05 Legacy GT Wagon with Cobb chip.
62 Alfa Romeo Spider- had a 1.6 L with 80 hp, now 2 L with 160 torque. Curb weight 2050 lbs.
93 Leg Twgn fmic, vf34, etc. ((sold))
05 Legacy GT Wagon with Cobb chip.
62 Alfa Romeo Spider- had a 1.6 L with 80 hp, now 2 L with 160 torque. Curb weight 2050 lbs.
93 Leg Twgn fmic, vf34, etc. ((sold))
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vrg3
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It's a fallacy that one factor being more significant than others means that the others can be disregarded.
It's also a fallacy that one cause having an effect in the past implies that it is the only possible cause for that effect in the present.
Logic can be our friend if we want to find the truth. However, it's a lot harder to stick to logically sound argument. Further, it's hard to commit to, to paraphrase Carl Sagan, preferring the difficult truth over our most cherished illusions.
It's also a fallacy that one cause having an effect in the past implies that it is the only possible cause for that effect in the present.
Logic can be our friend if we want to find the truth. However, it's a lot harder to stick to logically sound argument. Further, it's hard to commit to, to paraphrase Carl Sagan, preferring the difficult truth over our most cherished illusions.
"Just reading vrg3's convoluted, information-packed posts made me feel better all over again." -- subyluvr2212
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evolutionmovement
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It's certainly a nice distraction to keep people from the true sources of pollution that big business/government (there's little difference in this inverse socialist system) makes so much money off of. Even with CO2, there's all that carbon credit trading BS so little actually gets done.
Midnight in a Perfect World on Amazon or order anywhere. The first book in a quartet chronicling the rise of a man from angry criminal to philanthropist. Midnight... is a distopic noirish novel featuring 'Duchess', a modified 1990 Subaru Legacy wagon.
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SubaruNation
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AMEN! +1Manarius wrote:Frankly, the argument of Global Climate Change is irrelevant. The fact is, we have the technology, the money, and the rationality to make less of an impact than we do now. Why in the world would one argue to NOT do that? It makes no sense. If we have the choice to do something better, why would you FIGHT AGAINST it?
I don't care if global warming is true or not. We should be cutting carbon emissions and being more friendly to the environment regardless.
milankovitch cycles have been recognized, and yeah china needs to take control of their business but why do that if they can get away with polluting and having nothing happen?Subtle wrote:You might review it.
Mann's work is discredited.
The logic about man-caused warming is a common blunder.(my point)
The main "greenhouse" gas is water vapor.
There is very little correlation between carbon and climate change. If anything, temp leads carbon.
Most of the millions of years of climate change has been due to inluences off the planet. The output from the sun varies and the amount of energy received at the earth's surface varies due to the shape of the ellipse around the sun as well as to the tilt of the earth's axis relative to the sun.
Authoritarians can no longer 'sell" socialist central planning as a way of diminishing freedom and imposing control.
A new superstition was needed.
Then it goes full circle--the most authoritarian countries like eastern Europe and China have had the worst assault on the environment.
Anymore posts and I will be repeating myself.
they have no incentive or disincentive to quit.
we need smart people in International Relations, not manipulative politicians.
we also need standards but that will not happen either.
if you want to produce something, there will be pollution of some kind.
as the old saying goes, you cant produce something from nothing
Zach - Legacy Frankenstin
93forestpearl wrote:Keep up the good work. You'll never know what you are capable of unless you push yourself.
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SubaruNation
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and the cap and trade system worked great for our electric companies and others, but when nato tried to do it things just didnt work out.
Multi national corporations can say that they are committing to the reduction of pollution, without even doing anything b/c they have such a huge influence on international trade and government policies.
same thing goes when you have political leaders that are influenced by the MNC's
Multi national corporations can say that they are committing to the reduction of pollution, without even doing anything b/c they have such a huge influence on international trade and government policies.
same thing goes when you have political leaders that are influenced by the MNC's
Zach - Legacy Frankenstin
93forestpearl wrote:Keep up the good work. You'll never know what you are capable of unless you push yourself.
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evolutionmovement
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We are an inverse socialist system where corporations control the governments. It's like the old East India Trade Co. again, but many multinationals instead of one. Back then they had freedom fighters (and some scoundrels) they referred to as pirates. These pirates had ideas of equality and liberty that inspired the founding fathers of this country and others in turn. We need a new generation of pirates. Our closest match are fanatical terrorists and they suck because they're motivations are fundamentally the same as the criminal corporations in charge. The pacification of the otherwise restless lower class that last bred the pirates and anti-monarchy revolutionaries has been far more successful this time around. "What $100 HD DVD players made in China by the slave labor that took my outsourced job? Hot damn! Blu-Ray? What in the hell is that?"
Midnight in a Perfect World on Amazon or order anywhere. The first book in a quartet chronicling the rise of a man from angry criminal to philanthropist. Midnight... is a distopic noirish novel featuring 'Duchess', a modified 1990 Subaru Legacy wagon.
Corporate tax rates in Canada and the US are amongst the highest in the world. At around 35%.
If corporations are controlling government how could this be?
Former communist countries in Eastern Europe used to own and control all aspects of production and distribution until the folks got pissed off about their poor living standards.
With this bitter experience, power was taken away from the state and more shared with the electorate.
In most of those countries there is a flat tax rate of around 20% for corporations and individuals
It seems like the public and its commonsense is in control there.
In North America governments are still being allowed to rip off too much.
If corporations are controlling government how could this be?
Former communist countries in Eastern Europe used to own and control all aspects of production and distribution until the folks got pissed off about their poor living standards.
With this bitter experience, power was taken away from the state and more shared with the electorate.
In most of those countries there is a flat tax rate of around 20% for corporations and individuals
It seems like the public and its commonsense is in control there.
In North America governments are still being allowed to rip off too much.
Subtle (normally aspirated engines suck):
05 Legacy GT Wagon with Cobb chip.
62 Alfa Romeo Spider- had a 1.6 L with 80 hp, now 2 L with 160 torque. Curb weight 2050 lbs.
93 Leg Twgn fmic, vf34, etc. ((sold))
05 Legacy GT Wagon with Cobb chip.
62 Alfa Romeo Spider- had a 1.6 L with 80 hp, now 2 L with 160 torque. Curb weight 2050 lbs.
93 Leg Twgn fmic, vf34, etc. ((sold))
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vrg3
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There's a big discrepancy between the statutory tax rate and the actual taxes paid. A sophisticated system of tax shelters and rebates allows for this.
An example of evidence is this study:
http://www.ctj.org/corpfed04an.pdf
Read it with a grain of salt, because there is clearly an agenda behind the article, but it does show that at least 82 profit-earning Fortune 500 companies paid no net federal tax during the years studied; in fact, some of them paid negative net tax; that is, the rebates outweighed the payments.
An example of evidence is this study:
http://www.ctj.org/corpfed04an.pdf
Read it with a grain of salt, because there is clearly an agenda behind the article, but it does show that at least 82 profit-earning Fortune 500 companies paid no net federal tax during the years studied; in fact, some of them paid negative net tax; that is, the rebates outweighed the payments.
"Just reading vrg3's convoluted, information-packed posts made me feel better all over again." -- subyluvr2212
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evolutionmovement
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Listed tax rate has little to do with real payments corporations make, nor does that include all the off-shore tax dodgers, nor would I think 35% tax rate a terrible thing for a company that gets outrageous government contracts that that they embezzle the hell out of. Ask me about Boston's Big Dig if Halliburton or the administration's no-bid friends who got huge Iraq contracts with no prior experience are too tired of an obvious example. This country runs like an organized crime syndicate.
I don't think corporations or the wealthy are taxed enough as the rich are getting richer at a greater rate. They may pay more of the total taxes now than they did in 2000, but it's a lesser percentage of their much greater income. There's also the factor that many middle class people, not seeing a raise in 5 or more years or losing their jobs and having to settle for shit jobs that pay nothing cannot pay as much of a percentage of the total income taxes. And we could tax some dickhead like Romney 99% and he'd still be very comfortable. It wouldn't bother me if more were responsible philanthropists like Bill Gates or Warren Buffet, but there are too many morons paying $400k for a brand new Challenger they could get discounted next year for a tenth that. They spend money just to show how disgustingly rich and greedy they are at the expense of the increasing work week and less pay of their workers and that's the exact kind o thing that led to the rise Marxism and the French revolution. These pricks aren't killing and stealing to get funding for cancer research - these are nothing but ignoble villains.
I'm building a guillotine and I'm sharpening the blade. Rich people make tender meat.
The influence of big business since the rise of the industrial revolution has worked like the gas prices - they raise it $1 for a couple months, then drop it $.5 and people breathe a sigh of relief, then when everyone's used to that price, they repeat the cycle. It's the frog in the sauce pan thing - drop him in boiling water and he'll jump out, but bring up the temp slowly and he'll boil to death.
This country was not set up to be run by corporations and to deny that is not to invoke a call for socialism. They should be separate like church and state (and there's ANOTHER fucking issue altogether) as specified in the Constitution (based on pirate articles, written by thieves also considered to be terrorists in their day, but far better human beings than the douches in charge today). I'm watching my country quickly devolve into a 3rd world nation. Most of the profile is there - unchecked surveillance in the name of security (their own, not the citizens they are sworn to protect), overly powerful military force, wide gulf between the rich and the poor (while the public infrastructure and institutions crumble), disregard for international human rights accords, corrupt officials, disdain for intellectuals and education, and nepotism. That's off the top of my head. I'm sure I missed something.
This is supposed to be a Republic for the people, not a capitalist state. Capitalism is very much like a religion (and very easily fits the, somewhat ambiguous, definition of a cult). As with any religion, on it's own it isn't necessarily a bad thing, but if left unchecked the natural proclivity of humans to use whatever means available to control others often gives rise to fundamentalism and this must be stopped. Fundamentalism is the single biggest problem in the world today, be it Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, or Capitalism.
I don't think corporations or the wealthy are taxed enough as the rich are getting richer at a greater rate. They may pay more of the total taxes now than they did in 2000, but it's a lesser percentage of their much greater income. There's also the factor that many middle class people, not seeing a raise in 5 or more years or losing their jobs and having to settle for shit jobs that pay nothing cannot pay as much of a percentage of the total income taxes. And we could tax some dickhead like Romney 99% and he'd still be very comfortable. It wouldn't bother me if more were responsible philanthropists like Bill Gates or Warren Buffet, but there are too many morons paying $400k for a brand new Challenger they could get discounted next year for a tenth that. They spend money just to show how disgustingly rich and greedy they are at the expense of the increasing work week and less pay of their workers and that's the exact kind o thing that led to the rise Marxism and the French revolution. These pricks aren't killing and stealing to get funding for cancer research - these are nothing but ignoble villains.
I'm building a guillotine and I'm sharpening the blade. Rich people make tender meat.
The influence of big business since the rise of the industrial revolution has worked like the gas prices - they raise it $1 for a couple months, then drop it $.5 and people breathe a sigh of relief, then when everyone's used to that price, they repeat the cycle. It's the frog in the sauce pan thing - drop him in boiling water and he'll jump out, but bring up the temp slowly and he'll boil to death.
This country was not set up to be run by corporations and to deny that is not to invoke a call for socialism. They should be separate like church and state (and there's ANOTHER fucking issue altogether) as specified in the Constitution (based on pirate articles, written by thieves also considered to be terrorists in their day, but far better human beings than the douches in charge today). I'm watching my country quickly devolve into a 3rd world nation. Most of the profile is there - unchecked surveillance in the name of security (their own, not the citizens they are sworn to protect), overly powerful military force, wide gulf between the rich and the poor (while the public infrastructure and institutions crumble), disregard for international human rights accords, corrupt officials, disdain for intellectuals and education, and nepotism. That's off the top of my head. I'm sure I missed something.
This is supposed to be a Republic for the people, not a capitalist state. Capitalism is very much like a religion (and very easily fits the, somewhat ambiguous, definition of a cult). As with any religion, on it's own it isn't necessarily a bad thing, but if left unchecked the natural proclivity of humans to use whatever means available to control others often gives rise to fundamentalism and this must be stopped. Fundamentalism is the single biggest problem in the world today, be it Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, or Capitalism.
Midnight in a Perfect World on Amazon or order anywhere. The first book in a quartet chronicling the rise of a man from angry criminal to philanthropist. Midnight... is a distopic noirish novel featuring 'Duchess', a modified 1990 Subaru Legacy wagon.
Flat tax--no loop holes is best.
But hey--markets are tanking, earnings will be trashed and tax revenues to the government are going to decline significantly.
The higher the corporate tax load --the higher the costs to the consumer.
But hey--markets are tanking, earnings will be trashed and tax revenues to the government are going to decline significantly.
The higher the corporate tax load --the higher the costs to the consumer.
Subtle (normally aspirated engines suck):
05 Legacy GT Wagon with Cobb chip.
62 Alfa Romeo Spider- had a 1.6 L with 80 hp, now 2 L with 160 torque. Curb weight 2050 lbs.
93 Leg Twgn fmic, vf34, etc. ((sold))
05 Legacy GT Wagon with Cobb chip.
62 Alfa Romeo Spider- had a 1.6 L with 80 hp, now 2 L with 160 torque. Curb weight 2050 lbs.
93 Leg Twgn fmic, vf34, etc. ((sold))
Vikash
Hey--I'm with you the taxation system stinks--sorry for being choppy, but it is very exciting times in the financial markets and my deadline is always Thursday noon.
Hey--I'm with you the taxation system stinks--sorry for being choppy, but it is very exciting times in the financial markets and my deadline is always Thursday noon.
Subtle (normally aspirated engines suck):
05 Legacy GT Wagon with Cobb chip.
62 Alfa Romeo Spider- had a 1.6 L with 80 hp, now 2 L with 160 torque. Curb weight 2050 lbs.
93 Leg Twgn fmic, vf34, etc. ((sold))
05 Legacy GT Wagon with Cobb chip.
62 Alfa Romeo Spider- had a 1.6 L with 80 hp, now 2 L with 160 torque. Curb weight 2050 lbs.
93 Leg Twgn fmic, vf34, etc. ((sold))
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evolutionmovement
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The corporations charge what they can get away with. Tax burden is an excuse to pay their workers less. Only the little business guy suffers from high taxes (likely an LLC or such anyway). Big corporations and they're over-compensated mgt. are getting richer. Moreover, the government subsidizes many of these robber-barons. Agriculture is a huge problem with massive subsidies, the oil companies are subsidized and what comes back when they turn around and make massive profits? I know I haven't seen a dime. If I wanted to go to med school to better the world, I'd have to take out huge loans I'd have to repay, so why shouldn't corporations do the same at the very LEAST once they're turning big profits? To top it all, the oil cocksuckers won't even build new refineries with their profits (the lack of which is their present excuse for high prices), never mind directly repay the government. And once again, there are the no-bid contracts they receive for being government friendlies which is also a form of government subsidy.
I was offered a high 5-figure job in the Big Dig, which was nearly a no-show job (I would have to be there for a couple hours a day a week). I turned it down (nearly double what I was making) because I've learned somewhere that no amount of money can drown out the internal voice of self-hatred that comes from being a parasite. And that's exactly what these greedy scumbags are, corporations and individuals alike - a disease that should be cut out of society. Not all rich people are parasites and I have no problem with those of legitimate greater means, but the number of the power-influencing parasites among them need to be controlled. I blame their increasing numbers on society, media that panders to the lowest common denominator and the most base human urges, and a poor educational system, all controlled by fundamentalist capitalist influence.
I'd rather tax the criminal corporations and have the money get back to people who could use it for more important things, oh, surviving perhaps or trying to raise a decent kid, than staying with the rich douches so they can buy more 6-figure cars to park in the garage of a house they visit 2 days a year.
I was offered a high 5-figure job in the Big Dig, which was nearly a no-show job (I would have to be there for a couple hours a day a week). I turned it down (nearly double what I was making) because I've learned somewhere that no amount of money can drown out the internal voice of self-hatred that comes from being a parasite. And that's exactly what these greedy scumbags are, corporations and individuals alike - a disease that should be cut out of society. Not all rich people are parasites and I have no problem with those of legitimate greater means, but the number of the power-influencing parasites among them need to be controlled. I blame their increasing numbers on society, media that panders to the lowest common denominator and the most base human urges, and a poor educational system, all controlled by fundamentalist capitalist influence.
I'd rather tax the criminal corporations and have the money get back to people who could use it for more important things, oh, surviving perhaps or trying to raise a decent kid, than staying with the rich douches so they can buy more 6-figure cars to park in the garage of a house they visit 2 days a year.
Midnight in a Perfect World on Amazon or order anywhere. The first book in a quartet chronicling the rise of a man from angry criminal to philanthropist. Midnight... is a distopic noirish novel featuring 'Duchess', a modified 1990 Subaru Legacy wagon.
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SubaruNation
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ok i'm kinda both ways on this, corporations are good b/c they create jobs and distribute wealth reasonably.
but at the same time, if you work there they work your mind into becoming a corporate zombie (retail) and yeah.
i dont think i know as much as you this stuff as guys but, i did learn that 49% of the governments tax revenue comes from people in the top 20% of the income bracket. ?80K+ for a family i believe...?
thats alot.
jobs also keep people "essentially" from going out and committing crimes and the like.
i'm just pointing this out, so yeah.
i'm not defending exxon for being a multinational corporation that harbors terrorism and funds it (which is true)
i'm just saying that most people are not like that, from what i know so im open to thoughts.
i know the media and corporations have alot to do with the decisions we make on a day to day basis...which in turn leads to peoples political decisions.
which is BS, i hate subliminal manipulation.
ha ha now im all angry...raaaaaaarg!
aand im done
Zach - Legacy Frankenstin
93forestpearl wrote:Keep up the good work. You'll never know what you are capable of unless you push yourself.
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evolutionmovement
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They could create far more jobs than they do, but the guys at top are too busy throwing multi million dollar birthday parties for their dogs. I doubt $80k is high end - that's pretty much middle class around here, low middle for a couple.
If a guy making 7 figures pays 5% income taxes he pays far far more than a guy making $50k paying 30%. However, he could pay 95% and still take home at the very least the same amount as the 50k guy paying no income tax. I'm not advocating that kind of lopsided taxation, just proving a point. Most rich people aren't rich to help others and very many didn't get rich by being decent people or doing something useful, so I don't give them credit unless there's a reason to. Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are great examples as they compete with each other to give away billions to charity. And neither of them, from what I've seen, drive Bentleys with 22" gold wheels and LCD screens in the trunk.
But my biggest problem is merely influence on the government. People can choose to be pieces of shit in a free society, however, if that society is controlled by the selfish interests of the few, it is no longer a free society. By that, I don't have to tolerate their right to be pieces of shit. I can't shoot them (their government affords them too much protection), but I can still write, though I'm sure that right will disappear too.
Canada looks nicer by the day. Maybe I can move next door to Nico.
If a guy making 7 figures pays 5% income taxes he pays far far more than a guy making $50k paying 30%. However, he could pay 95% and still take home at the very least the same amount as the 50k guy paying no income tax. I'm not advocating that kind of lopsided taxation, just proving a point. Most rich people aren't rich to help others and very many didn't get rich by being decent people or doing something useful, so I don't give them credit unless there's a reason to. Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are great examples as they compete with each other to give away billions to charity. And neither of them, from what I've seen, drive Bentleys with 22" gold wheels and LCD screens in the trunk.
But my biggest problem is merely influence on the government. People can choose to be pieces of shit in a free society, however, if that society is controlled by the selfish interests of the few, it is no longer a free society. By that, I don't have to tolerate their right to be pieces of shit. I can't shoot them (their government affords them too much protection), but I can still write, though I'm sure that right will disappear too.
Canada looks nicer by the day. Maybe I can move next door to Nico.
Midnight in a Perfect World on Amazon or order anywhere. The first book in a quartet chronicling the rise of a man from angry criminal to philanthropist. Midnight... is a distopic noirish novel featuring 'Duchess', a modified 1990 Subaru Legacy wagon.
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SubaruNation
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i am beginning to understand that more and more every day... the dirties.
i'm down for canada though!
especially if the H becomes....
although as long as i can get an apache helicopter and learn how to work the W sytem then i think i'll be ok
i'm down for canada though!
especially if the H becomes....
although as long as i can get an apache helicopter and learn how to work the W sytem then i think i'll be ok
Zach - Legacy Frankenstin
93forestpearl wrote:Keep up the good work. You'll never know what you are capable of unless you push yourself.
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evolutionmovement
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Helicopters are not easy to fly and are maintenance nightmares. Small gyroplanes are a good bet, but they aren't weapons platforms.
Midnight in a Perfect World on Amazon or order anywhere. The first book in a quartet chronicling the rise of a man from angry criminal to philanthropist. Midnight... is a distopic noirish novel featuring 'Duchess', a modified 1990 Subaru Legacy wagon.
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SubaruNation
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beatersubi
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A turbo flat four powered helicopter?SubaruNation wrote:LETS MAKE ONE THEN!
Meanwhile, back on topic...
10%, or something rediculous like that, control 90% of our country's wealth. I wonder how much tax they pay.
<70k/annual per household is considered low income here.
I've recently come to the conclusion that to be wealthy requires the lack of a consience. And that money=happiness
.93 legacy wagon L, 22T swapped (TW imitator) now with five forward speeds. (Gone, but never forgotten)
johndrivesabox wrote: Rally, my kyboard is brok, his has nohing o do wih h liquor.
Originalcyn wrote:Apparently everyone hates Gabe.
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SubaruNation
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...
This blurb was in one of the daily engineering things I get. I found it a little amusing they're just "now" figuring this out. If you look at the whole picture, there's more steps involved in producing ethanol. The study may not be totally accurate, but like I said if you look at the whole picture involved with bio fuels, especially corn-based ethanol....it's completely ridiculous.
Study suggests biofuels may worsen climate change.
The Wall Street Journal (2/8, A4, Naik) reports that two new studies suggest production of biofuels "will increase carbon-dioxide levels." According to a study that appeared in the latest issue of the journal Science, "corn-based ethanol...will nearly double the output of greenhouse-gas emissions instead of reducing them by about one-fifth by some estimates." Also, "[a] separate paper in Science concludes that clearing native habitats to grow crops for biofuel generally will lead to more carbon emissions." These "findings are the latest to take aim at biofuels, which have already been blamed for pushing up prices of corn and other food crops, as well as straining water supplies."
The Washington Post (2/8, A5, Eilperin) points out that the independent analyses "could force policymakers in the United States and Europe to reevaluate incentives they have adopted to spur production of ethanol-based fuels." In one study, "researchers from Princeton University, Woods Hole Research Center and Iowa State University along with an agriculture consultant" came to the conclusion "that over 30 years, use of traditional corn-based ethanol would produce twice as much greenhouse gas emissions as regular gasoline." In the other study, "a Nature Conservancy scientist along with University of Minnesota researchers found that converting rainforests, peatlands, savannas or grasslands in Southeast Asia and Latin America to produce biofuels will increase global warming pollution for decades, if not centuries."
The New York Times (2/8, Rosenthal) adds, "In the wake of the new studies, a group of 10 of the United States's most eminent ecologists and environmental biologists today sent a letter to President Bush and the speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), urging a reform of biofuels policies." The EU "and a number of European countries have recently tried to address the land use issue with proposals stipulating that imported biofuels cannot come from land that was previously rain forest."
The Los Angeles Times (2/8, Zarembo) notes that, "[s]ince 2000, annual U.S. production of corn-based ethanol has jumped from 1.6 billion gallons to 6.5 billion gallons -- supplying about 5 percent of the nation's fuel for transportation, according to the Renewable Fuels Assn., an industry lobbying group." Under federal legislation passed in 2007, "production of ethanol [would] more than double over the next decade." And "Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger's proposal to reduce greenhouse gas emissions" in California "relies heavily on biofuels."
The National Geographic magazine (2/7, Inman), in its website, quotes study co-author David Tilman of the University of Minnesota as saying that, however, "there are some kinds of biofuels that could be helpful, such as those made from grasses or algae." The National Geographic noted that "iofuels release roughly as much carbon dioxide when burnt as regular gasoline or diesel. But since biofuel crops also soak up carbon dioxide as they grow, they were thought to reduce overall emissions as compared with fossil fuels."
The AP (2/8, Hebert) adds that, according to analysis, "farmers under economic pressure to produce biofuels will increasingly 'plow up more forest or grasslands,' releasing much of the carbon formerly stored in plants and soils through decomposition or fires."
"Biofuels grown this way come with a 'carbon debt,' the researchers found. Instead of cutting greenhouse pollution, the net effect is to increase it," Reuters (2/8, Zabarenko) quotes researchers. Nevertheless, "ndustry groups took issue with the findings, calling them simplistic and noting the use of environmentally sound techniques to cultivate biofuel crops." Furthermore, the Renewable Fuels Association said, "Biofuels alone are not the silver bullet to the energy," however, "they do offer a pathway forward." Additionally, "[t]he Biotechnology Industry Organization cited its own study that indicated farmers could produce enough feedstock for biofuels through environmentally sustainable no-till agriculture.
The Financial Times (2/8, Cookson), the International Herald Tribune (2/8, Rosenthal), the U.K.'s Telegraph (2/8, Eccleston), the U.K.'s Independent (2/8, INM), and the Minnesota Public Radio (2/7, Hemphill) also covered the story.
Study suggests biofuels may worsen climate change.
The Wall Street Journal (2/8, A4, Naik) reports that two new studies suggest production of biofuels "will increase carbon-dioxide levels." According to a study that appeared in the latest issue of the journal Science, "corn-based ethanol...will nearly double the output of greenhouse-gas emissions instead of reducing them by about one-fifth by some estimates." Also, "[a] separate paper in Science concludes that clearing native habitats to grow crops for biofuel generally will lead to more carbon emissions." These "findings are the latest to take aim at biofuels, which have already been blamed for pushing up prices of corn and other food crops, as well as straining water supplies."
The Washington Post (2/8, A5, Eilperin) points out that the independent analyses "could force policymakers in the United States and Europe to reevaluate incentives they have adopted to spur production of ethanol-based fuels." In one study, "researchers from Princeton University, Woods Hole Research Center and Iowa State University along with an agriculture consultant" came to the conclusion "that over 30 years, use of traditional corn-based ethanol would produce twice as much greenhouse gas emissions as regular gasoline." In the other study, "a Nature Conservancy scientist along with University of Minnesota researchers found that converting rainforests, peatlands, savannas or grasslands in Southeast Asia and Latin America to produce biofuels will increase global warming pollution for decades, if not centuries."
The New York Times (2/8, Rosenthal) adds, "In the wake of the new studies, a group of 10 of the United States's most eminent ecologists and environmental biologists today sent a letter to President Bush and the speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), urging a reform of biofuels policies." The EU "and a number of European countries have recently tried to address the land use issue with proposals stipulating that imported biofuels cannot come from land that was previously rain forest."
The Los Angeles Times (2/8, Zarembo) notes that, "[s]ince 2000, annual U.S. production of corn-based ethanol has jumped from 1.6 billion gallons to 6.5 billion gallons -- supplying about 5 percent of the nation's fuel for transportation, according to the Renewable Fuels Assn., an industry lobbying group." Under federal legislation passed in 2007, "production of ethanol [would] more than double over the next decade." And "Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger's proposal to reduce greenhouse gas emissions" in California "relies heavily on biofuels."
The National Geographic magazine (2/7, Inman), in its website, quotes study co-author David Tilman of the University of Minnesota as saying that, however, "there are some kinds of biofuels that could be helpful, such as those made from grasses or algae." The National Geographic noted that "iofuels release roughly as much carbon dioxide when burnt as regular gasoline or diesel. But since biofuel crops also soak up carbon dioxide as they grow, they were thought to reduce overall emissions as compared with fossil fuels."
The AP (2/8, Hebert) adds that, according to analysis, "farmers under economic pressure to produce biofuels will increasingly 'plow up more forest or grasslands,' releasing much of the carbon formerly stored in plants and soils through decomposition or fires."
"Biofuels grown this way come with a 'carbon debt,' the researchers found. Instead of cutting greenhouse pollution, the net effect is to increase it," Reuters (2/8, Zabarenko) quotes researchers. Nevertheless, "ndustry groups took issue with the findings, calling them simplistic and noting the use of environmentally sound techniques to cultivate biofuel crops." Furthermore, the Renewable Fuels Association said, "Biofuels alone are not the silver bullet to the energy," however, "they do offer a pathway forward." Additionally, "[t]he Biotechnology Industry Organization cited its own study that indicated farmers could produce enough feedstock for biofuels through environmentally sustainable no-till agriculture.
The Financial Times (2/8, Cookson), the International Herald Tribune (2/8, Rosenthal), the U.K.'s Telegraph (2/8, Eccleston), the U.K.'s Independent (2/8, INM), and the Minnesota Public Radio (2/7, Hemphill) also covered the story.
Josh
surrealmirage.com/subaru
1990 Legacy (AWD, 6MT, & EJ22T Swap)
2020 Outback Limted XT
If you need to get a hold of me please email me rather then pm
surrealmirage.com/subaru
1990 Legacy (AWD, 6MT, & EJ22T Swap)
2020 Outback Limted XT
If you need to get a hold of me please email me rather then pm
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vrg3
- Vikash
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Yeah, the subsidies on corn make corn-based ethanol seem cheap and friendly, but the idea of fueling our cars with corn is misguided at best. There are waaaay better crops to fuel engines with.
"Just reading vrg3's convoluted, information-packed posts made me feel better all over again." -- subyluvr2212
