Ethanol Ramblings

[douglas vincent]

I get 13 mpg with E85.....

The only way for me to get better milage is a different car! One that is SLOW. I guess I need to steal my moms 20 year old Metro...

[entirelyturbo]

sublunacy, did you read my ethanol article on the second page?

No one who has 4th-grade arithmetic skills can possibly advocate E10 fuel.

And, as Josh said, we cannot run the whole country on E85 and expect to eat as well.

If we're going to go electric, I think we need to go solar.

It's the friggin' sun. It dumps more energy on us than we'll ever need, it's absolutely free, and it's not going to run out anytime soon.

[evolutionmovement]

I like how worked up he's getting from half-reading the latter end of a fairly long thread. Sun Tzu would have loved this guy.

[entirelyturbo]

Just realized I missed Binford's post:

I have a solution for food:

SOILENT GREEN IS PEOPLE!!!!!

I agree. Jonathan Swift was onto something.

[sublunacy]

13 miles to the gallon at what compression ratio?

Im reading the same stuff you guys are.
For example: the brazil/ usa fuel table- I read it and it says lol-That brazil has tried something usa hasn't and has succeeded in doing it. They make 20% more ethanol than they need:) What is wrong whith that?
If that sucks then sell your car.

[sublunacy]

Quote from nasioc
"How much will my miles per gallon of fuel drop with E85?

The only negative to E85 is that it gives a lower fuel milage on a gallon for gallon basis to gasoline. The actual difference in energy content between straight gasoline and E85 is about 27%.

The drop in mileage is not as significant as you would think based on that difference due to the higher efficiency of the ethanol as a high performance fuel. This winter I was getting about 92% of the fuel milage I would get on gasoline on 100% E85. "

. hmmm 13 miles to the gallon right reddevil?

I can do this all day, all your info is is just meant to strikefear in the hearts of regular working people and confuse them. And is unfortunatly tottally untrue.

math? 21 million barrels times 50 dollars A DAY
see you loose i win

[douglas vincent]

Yeah, 13mpg....

But why? Cause its built to make 400whp on a 1990 ECU....

Not blaming the E85....

[sublunacy]

Quote " 30-50 gals/yr/acre statistic" WTF are u farming wild strawberries?
The numbers for grass is more like 600 gallons a year, and wasn't corn and sugar cane 560 and 870 gallons?
And we still refuse to talk about waste byproducts from industries.

I shouldn't have to convinse u guys, Alcohol is better than oil, everything else is semantics and politics.

This attitude of its easier just to keep sucking up ground oil and dispersing it freely into the air" is really weak and if you left it in the ground and made ur own fuel out of biologic waste, the CYCLE of growth and decay would balance itself. That is all the logic u should need.

Look ethanol works for me, if i was allowed to make it.
So what are we talking about? How its not going to solve americas energy crisis? That is completely hopeless way of looking at it. And it surprises me that american subaru owners would laugh in the face of alcohol.

[entirelyturbo]

the higher efficiency of the ethanol as a high performance fuel

Ethanol simply lets you get away with tuning methods that would otherwise blow up an engine running on pure gasoline, like timing advance, because of its lower energy content per given amount.

If you're doing 200mph on your way to work everyday, then yeah, it sounds more feasible. But that doesn't make ethanol any more efficient, in any form.

[Legacy777]

The Brazil model for ethanol is different. They run hydrous ethanol vs. anhydrous ethanol. As a result the infrastructure requirements tend to be different. Plus, Brazil's government run oil company, Petrobraus isn't as free with the all the details regarding their handling of ethanol. I've been involved with several industry road maps and programs regarding ethanol, and even listened to some of the Petrobraus guys talk. While the technical guys did answer questions, their boss's speach sounded very propagandaish.

Anyway, ethanol is not the solution. It is an intermediate fuel/energy source at best. The amount of energy inputted to produce ethanol is about 29% greater than the amount of energy it yields when finished being produced.

http://artsci.wustl.edu/~anthro/article ... thanol.pdf

There's so much fucking politics in ethanol and the energy industry....actually all industries have a shit load of politics, but energy is the hot topic now. As long as the politics are there, and the subsidies exist, innovation for the next generation of cheap mass produced energy will be stifled.

I'm all for looking for alternative means to fossil fuels. However, like mentioned there's a lot of politics involved. Additionally, I agree with Steve, there's just way too many fucking people in this world. We have out grown our resources. That and trying to get individuals to change their habits. They are not going to give up their cushy lives unless they are forced with a dire situation. It's human nature to take the path of least resistance, which is to keep sucking up the dino juice.

[sublunacy]

All this stuff i have been talking about and your concerned about a piece of the quote i was using from nasioc, taken out of context for sure, bro

Look ill put together some numbers if you want but im no expert, it will take me some time. I like talking to u guys about this and getting your opinion, you can't know what it means to me in the fight against crude oil demand. If im wrong, i want to be corrected.
But i we need to be realistic, wich is difficult because the proof is in the pudding, and your recipe is wildly ignorant when it comes to homebased small scale ethanol production, that removes a need for petrol. I don't care about diesel or biodiesel or jet fuel. all that is Non Applicable to this thread.

[sublunacy]

Youtube - Hemp for Ethanol in Kentucky, with Craig Lee

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6cKjdIej04

----------------
Or how about this from abc news---Myth: Corn Ethanol is Great
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9QQcP_Y1II

That guy jery taylor is from CATO institute
This is from wikipedia about CATO. Quote
"The Cato Institute is a non-partisan libertarian think tank headquartered in Washington, D.C. The Institute states that it favors policies "that are consistent with the traditional American principles of limited government, individual liberty, and peace." [1] Cato scholars conduct policy research on a broad range of public policy issues, and produce books, studies, op-eds, and blog posts. They are also frequent guests in the media.

Cato was founded in 1977 by Edward H. Crane and Charles Koch, [2] the billionaire co-owner of Koch Industries; the largest privately owned company in the United States. Though diversified, the company amassed most of its fortune in oil trading and refining. [3]
" end of quote.


Like i said ignorance!

[fishbone79]

I really don't want to get too involved here because the arguments are a bit rudimentary and scattered, but the way I see it, you've got 4 things to explain before anyone will listen to you:

1. The energy content of ethanol is ~27% less. I don't care if you fart in your gas tank to make up the difference, you WILL NOT get comparable mileage out of ethanol (anyhydrous or hydrous). 99.999% of the cars on the road are not setup to run effectively on it either.

2. Ethanol is still at a near 30% net-deficit in energy production because, regardless of what you're getting it from, it still must be planted and harvested... I don't see many electric or solar powered combines running around, so this needs solving. If you work out the energy transfer equations, you will see that the input energy flux is far outpaced by the output energy flux, while the reservoir is paltry. When regular old oil runs out, how will we harvest our silly ethanol producing plants? It's not a perpetual motion machine, energy must be conserved...

3. The plants that produce the most abundant simple carbohydrates are the best for making ethanol (i.e., that's why sugar is better than corn, corn better than grass, etc.). These plants also happen to be the worst for the soil. This is bad news bears for agriculture. Not to mention that this arable land is far better spent growing things to fill our bellies. Brazil is a lousy model for us to follow, there was an interesting bit on it in this past week's Science.

4. Running ethanol/biodiesel etc. in ICE's is a crutch to make antiquated technology last a little longer on a resource we know is dwindling. This is a fact that no one can dispute - oil will run out, and will be extremely expensive in 50 years (listen to the geologist here...). There are other answers, electricity is probably the closest we can get right now, but some serious innovation is needed. In the short term we need nukes, longer term (10^2 year) we need alternative electricity sources such as more efficient solar generators (i.e., 'Solar-1' gets ~~30% efficiency with it's mirror setup, normal solar panels are currently lucky to get 15% efficiency).

If you want a cheap replacement for traditional fossil fuels, algae is the best bet. It's basically a solar panel that output's biodiesel, and it can currently be produced at a 4% net energy surplus. In other words, we get 4% more energy out of it than we put in, and the absolute best ethanol solution gets 30% less energy out than it puts in.... So why the *&%^#$ are we messing around with Ethanol again?????

[entirelyturbo]

sublunacy, what do you lubricate your engine with?

[sublunacy]

DerFahrer Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:03 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

sublunacy, what do you lubricate your engine with?

End of quote-

Well derFahrer that again is a dumb question because that is not going to be replaced with ethanol is it. quit wasting my time and start some nazi thread so you can talk about Biodiesel and how much your going to need to make gear and crankcase oil, and BTW each only contain 1 gallon that lasts an lasts, 5,000 miles or more.
and those are not even conservative numbers are they.

I see your concern about the procedure of making alcohol and itsso called net lossby means of large production, so sit back cause im going to have to write this down for you so you don't miss anything.

[entirelyturbo]

So you're lambasting the petroleum industry and advocating its demise as a whole, while at the same time admitting that you can't run your car without it?

Sounds like the only one wasting their time here is you.

[sublunacy]

Quote from Legacy 777 The Brazil model for ethanol is different. They run hydrous ethanol vs. anhydrous ethanol. As a result the infrastructure requirements tend to be different. Plus, Brazil's government run oil company, Petrobraus isn't as free with the all the details regarding their handling of ethanol. I've been involved with several industry road maps and programs regarding ethanol, and even listened to some of the Petrobraus guys talk. While the technical guys did answer questions, their boss's speach sounded very propagandaish.
-----------------
It means they run it with 3-7 percent WATER in it. By deffinition and explanation. Whats wrong with brazil anyway? you to should start your own thread talking about the Brazilian and see how far that gets you. because your dictatorship attitude towards alcohol is a problem.

[sublunacy]

I am going to describe the homemade alcohol process, or hydrous ethanol as you guys like to call it. but first

First there was carbon, LOL just kidding ill skip forward to present day.
Here we go-
carbon in the air forms trees, and fruit, and leaves fall off them in the winter months, and the trees get old and they decay releasing the carbon. remember fire is decay and carbon is an element, so unless the carbon has been destroyed, wich is imposible. It flows from one form to another. - in the air its not great to have extra.
-On the ground its fine, perfectly normal.

Its fine to use vast amounts of energy as long as it doesn't get removed from its REGULAR cycle,
Burning oil releases carbon that was burried for a reason.

----using waste byproducts for alcohol keeps within the cycle. Furthering the cycle of carbon as it was supposed to be untill our bodies too become fossil fuels. Who are you to disturb the million year process our world has taken to put it there. Who are you to demand that?

[sublunacy]

Did u know usa is has been and is currently taxing ethanol imports 50% to cross the border? You can't give a country something its tryin to keep out. They are tryin to sell u some cheap , already made. And you say no!
Selfserving dictatorship and laws that funnel ethanols demand to seemingly unreachable goals. its brainwashing

[fishbone79]

Actually, we currently purchase most of Brazil's surplus. You are confusing a production surplus with a net energy loss due to production, they are two different concepts. The ethanol that Brazil produces still TAKES MORE ENERGY TO MAKE THAN IT YIELDS, meaning it is produced at an energy loss. In other words, producing ethanol requires conventional oil - roughly 1.3 joules of conventional oil is required to produce 1 joule of ethanol. Therefore, when conventional oil is used up, or extremely expensive, there will be no way to make ethanol. You can't sustainably make ethanol from ethanol because energy must be conserved, and the production process will require 1.5-2 times the amount of ethanol as an input than it yields as an output. Ethanol from sugar is a much more efficient process, but still cannot be produced at an energy surplus - Brazil makes more than they need, but that does not mean it's not made at an energy loss.

The inorganic and organic carbon cycles are inextricably linked, any surface process effecting either can be considered 'natural'. What you don't understand is that burning ethanol is actually far less efficient than if we had just burned the fossil fuels used to produce it!! By using ethanol we use more oil than we would have if we had just used that oil in the first place. It has nothing to do with economics or politics, this is basic arithmetic.

Perhaps I'm just troll-feeding here.

[sublunacy]

Trolls go for easy meals
Im pickin on you guys, thats not easy.

The problem i see with current ethanol production is transportation#1, and 2nd is the crop

Small scale homebased/ mobile stills, i hope might be the answer, unless you have a better one or this doesn't work. Remember what im proposing is illegal without permit.
But will it work?

We will need containers, a condenser and a still. Ceck


Water- Using evestraugh runnoff, and waste water from houses and local businesses and industry etc. AKA water that won't be missed directly like- its a little dirty, or its the wrong temperature, or maybe it was just going down the drain

Heat- geothermal, conductive, wasre, magnification, radiation, infared etc etc pick one you like, I don't care.

Finally we need something to ferment. That shouldn't be hard. Waste, and Excesses. Everything from lawn clipings to expiries

If somebody or somecompany was making it for you, you would purchase the ethanol and could leave something to further the process.

Remember, in the current ethanol model, the Corn and the transportation was the problem, making an energy crisis

in my model the excesses are fermented and ethanol is directly available. pure. Every gallon of ethanol made from this manner Replaces fully 1 or 2 gallons of pure gassoline, because gasoline of course needs to be moved to the consmer or consumer country and has to be made from a larger amount of crude, plus the cost of chemicaly altering and purriffying, plus payin sunoco for hightest 94 octane..... blah blah blah
-- -- --
This is what I have been talking about. I know its not for everyone or metropolis for sure. But Like it or not it is possible to leave some of that cash in the country, A little labour goes a long way when it is multiplied by a million. Maybe or visionary writer here evolutionment can help me out here, cause a think im tapped and finished trying to illuminate a brighter future. I hope i have not forgotten to add anything to my play.



Soooo.... lets hear it? Good , bad or ugly
I want to make my own fuel I scream at the gods!

[fishbone79]

You are right, a disseminated approach would be much more efficient.... But ethanol is not the fuel of choice.

You can make 60 gallons of refinable hydrocarbons (40 gallons gasoline equivalent) per week of on an average 50'x40' rooftop using low technology algae culture. 200 gal/week is possible with recirculators, etc. This works because your energy input is the sun, and you're essentially having photosynthesis directly produce long-chain hydrocarbons with no intermediary.

[rallyguy_777]

hey all of you agry people out there. Haven't read this whole thread, but I can put my 2 cents in.

I am in Canada and am part of Team Manick. We rally race and were winners of the 2009 Ontario rally championship.


We ran on E85......


We alos run in the Canadaian Rally Championship against guys like Frank Sprongl, Pat Rishard and the like.

I can say that we use the same amount of fuel as they do, if not less.

The idea is that you have to use, from OUR OWN NUMBERS 20-30% more fuel then running on regular gas. That beign said, this wasn't compared to race gas.

I am in no way saying that ethanol is the answer to all of lifes problems, and a bag of chips, BUT it is a good alternative for the time being.

There is a place in the US which will go un named, that sells conversion kits to let you run on gas to 100% ethanol or anything in between adn they run at $100 US.

I think that people need to not look at large scale production adn look at small scale prodution of ethanol.

I am currently working with a company that manufactures a home ethanol production system that you can put in basically anthything that has sugar in it adn produce your own ethanol. It is a step int he right direction because you DONT HAVE TO USE CORN.

It also doesn't use a coal fired distillation column.

SOOO for most people this would be a great idea, but it may or may not be able to accomadate the amount of fuel you need in a month etc.


thats what I think of ethanol.

If you want any more info about ethanol PM me if its serious

[sublunacy]

Hello pro America its me again. How is your energy crisis doing? how is the gulf? still leaking in international waters? How is your ethanol debate? Wich poor countries people are going to be supplying you with cheap oil and patent heroin next? any clues?

Anyone find something other than petrol or alcohol to power the sube yet? Man you guys are so good at thinking that im just waitng here for answers.

[SILINC3R]

HAHA