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 Post subject: Official CF/FG Hood Discussion/Status Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:31 pm 
First Gear
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:09 pm
Posts: 80
Location: Northern Idaho
Gentleman,

I am officially starting a thread for the post face lift composite hoods. This is not the official “For Sale” thread but is rather a place for discussion of them, options that people really want – and are willing to pay for – and general status. This is the ‘how does, can I, will you,….’ Thread.

Status
My day job now has me working 4x10’s which limits my availability during the week but gives me an entire Friday. The sum result of this is I’m still finding the new balance of work, Northwind, and marriage (the last one is the hardest ). Last week I moved the hood mold back over to the shop. Two years of storage in a storage unit and garage did cause a little hangar rash but I’ll have the final polishing done tomorrow. There are still a few small undulations that exist but I do not think they’ll cause anyone any trouble provided when they paint the hood they use a sanding block between coats. These are minor but I’m being open about them being there – this was still one of my earlier tools.

At present I believe I have the final design fairly nailed down. That said, I have some new materials on order to build a complete “fiberglass only” version to verify the updated ply layout, overall design, labor, and weight. I am looking at offering essentially three different versions, see additional information below. The preliminary pricing is between roughly $500 for a fiberglass only to $1,000 for a full carbon version. I am used to designing parts for aircraft that cruise at 210mph and my first prototype you could club a car thief with – hence why I am building a second fiberglass only version to verify the updated design.

Version 1: Fiberglass Only
This version is meant to be the most economical composite hood option. It is 100% fiberglass. It is intended to be used in Auto-X type applications where speeds will be generally lower and a trade-off is being made by the customer to sacrifice a little weight for price. All of the primary structure and reinforcements will be fiberglass.

Version 2: Carbon Outer Ply, Fiberglass Structure, Carbon Reinforcements
This version is meant to be the next step up. The outer ply, what will be visible from the outside, will be 2x2 twill carbon fiber. This is the same carbon as the sunroof inserts are made from. The rest of the primary structure will be fiberglass. There are specific local reinforcements within the layup to provide stiffness/strength around the edges, anticipated latch locations, and hinges. These reinforcements will be made from carbon for this version. This version is meant to be an intermediate step for those that want the aesthetic look of carbon and increased stiffness. This is still intended for the Auto-X/Rally-X type applications.

Version 3: All Carbon
This is the full race spec version - all carbon, strongest, lightest, and coolest. This is what is recommended for time attack/open track style racing applications. The base design is the same as Version 1 and Version 2 except that all the plies are carbon.

Options
Version 2 and Version 3 are available with a colored hybrid carbon/Kevlar first ply. There will be a small “PITA” charge associated with dealing with the Kevlar and the additional wear it creates on tools.

Hood Scoops
Currently there are two options - the existing molded in scoop that is shown in the pictures or a molded in recess that matches the size of the existing SS scoop to allow mounting of your own scoop. There is no cost difference between these two options.

Mounting
The hoods are designed with the intention that they will be mounted with hood pins or latches in the front corners and do not offer a system to work with the factory hood release. The rear of the hood may be mounted in a variety of ways.

My personal test hood uses two aerocatch latches in the front and custom/modified hinges the rear. The base laminate design has reinforcement plies in the front and rear corners as the front is intended to be held down with aerocatches or hood pins. The rear can also be held down with aerocatches or hood pins.

That said, there are special threaded inserts that can be bonded into core to allow you to bolt things down. This is the arrangement I have with mine. I can install bonded in threaded inserts, four at each corner, for a cost of $40.00. These inserts allow easy mounting of a hinge bracket. It works well but it does require some light fab skills in making the hinge.

Pricing
Version 1 - $505.00
Version 2 - $595.00
Version 3 - $790.00

I will install threaded inserts in the rear for an additional $40.00

The colored kevlar first ply PITA charge is an additional $20.00.

Special Order
Simply put – money talks and I can work with you to get you exactly what you need if you have something unique and exciting you’re wanting.

Hopefully this provides a reasonable status update on the hood and allows for some discussion. I am wanting to get pricing/design/options nailed down in the coming weeks so I can get some parts to everyone before race season starts back up.

Let me know what you guys think and lets go from there.

Thank you,

Lee

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Last edited by Northwind Composites on Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Official CF/FG Hood Discussion/Status Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 10:46 pm 
Fourth Gear
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2007 4:35 am
Posts: 1734
Location: All over the place
This is a wonderful read to start my morning!

What kind of fabbing is required at the hinges to have them attach to the hood? This would definitely be my preferred method even for a strict race vehicle, as completely detaching what is essentially a rigid sail is not always desirable.

As far as scoop options go, I didn't see you mention if the molded in scoop is stock size or not? If its enlarged, I'd like the option to delete it if its feasible. Maybe just provide the recess for a scoop, and we can put whatever we want in there (blank, WRX scoop, aftermarket scoop, etc).


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 Post subject: Re: Official CF/FG Hood Discussion/Status Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 11:12 pm 
First Gear
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:09 pm
Posts: 80
Location: Northern Idaho
James,

Excellent questions. I can price out installing the threaded inserts and then it would leave you with fabricating a metal hinge piece to tie from the hood to the factory hinge. A picture here is going to be worth a thousand words. I will get pictures of my setup posted tomorrow.

The current molded scoop is just a hair larger than stock but it is still subtle. Again, a picture is probably more valuable and I'll get some pictures of the current molded scoop and my stock scoop posted.


The hinges consist of one half of the stock hinge attached to the chassis with a custom aluminum second half that attaches to the hood. You can get the idea in the picture below (NOTE - I recommend 3-4 fasteners attaching the hinge to the hood and if I'm installing the threaded inserts there will be a 4-fastener pattern for you to use. Mine works, but it's a modification of a first crack that didn't turn out quite right so I did what I needed to three days before race day...)

Image

Image

Image

Below is a flat pattern representation of the hinge that will need fabricated. I would recommend 0.050in 2024-T3 aluminum or equivalent.

Image

That said, here are several pictures of the hood scoop. It gives good views of the contours (it's not perfect, but it's fair). The scale in the one picture is 1.0in wide so you can use that as a reference.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image


Thank you.

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Last edited by Northwind Composites on Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:48 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Official CF/FG Hood Discussion/Status Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 9:19 am 
Moderator
Moderator
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:52 am
Posts: 4543
Location: Des Moines, Wa
Subscribed. What do you think shipping would come to? I am fine with hood pins so long as the factory hinges (or modified variation of those) could be used.

No opinion on hood scoop, because I won't be using a tmic.

This is very exciting!

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 Post subject: Re: Official CF/FG Hood Discussion/Status Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:35 pm 
First Gear
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:09 pm
Posts: 80
Location: Northern Idaho
Mike - I have been using USPS and UPS online shipping estimators for getting a rough idea on shipping. For this, I would say it's going to into a 5ft x 5ft x 1ft box and weigh around 20lbs all said and done. The box might end up being closer to 5.5ft x 5ft x 1ft as I'll want to make sure it's got plenty of padding around the edges. My zip code here is 83864 - Sandpoint Idaho.

Let me know if there are any other questions and I'll get some more detailed hinge information up tonight/tomorrow.

Thank you.

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 Post subject: Re: Official CF/FG Hood Discussion/Status Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:40 pm 
Fourth Gear
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2007 4:35 am
Posts: 1734
Location: All over the place
USPS's website is telling me that its too large to be mailed :(


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 Post subject: Re: Official CF/FG Hood Discussion/Status Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:57 pm 
First Gear
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:09 pm
Posts: 80
Location: Northern Idaho
Gentleman, a fellow kind BBS member turned me onto FedEx as a possible cheaper way to ship large items (thank you :) ). I will be looking into setting up an account with them. Therefore, feel free to check them out too for shipping quotes.

James - You have a PM. I got you covered :).

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 Post subject: Re: Official CF/FG Hood Discussion/Status Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:56 pm 
Fourth Gear
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:34 pm
Posts: 1980
Location: Lake Elsinore, CA
I'm not a typical customer for this type of thing, but you asked for feedback.

I prefer the stock look. I would prefer that the hood use proper hinges at the rear (a modified hinge is OK as long is it is included) and factory latch at the front, including leveling bumpers. I would prefer that it use a stock bolt-in hood scoop - either BC/BF or BD/BG Legacy, or GC/GF or Bugeye WRX/STI. I don't particularly like the later '04-'07 WRX/STI scoops. There are aftermarket scoops of any type that fit Bugeye cutouts so those might be a good choice.

I would only purchase something like this if it saves noticeable weight, but if it does the price is little concern in the course of a restoration.


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 Post subject: Re: Official CF/FG Hood Discussion/Status Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:56 am 
First Gear
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:09 pm
Posts: 80
Location: Northern Idaho
^^^ Thank you for the input, I do appreciate it.

I have updated this thread with some additional pictures of the hinges. If there is enough interest I can look into the additional cost of having the hinge pieces fabricated and included. However, at this point I would prefer to leave the hinge fab work to the customer.

As far as weight savings, my prototype weight 11.2lbs with hinge hardware. I am still looking to reduce that a little and I'll report back once I make the full fiberglass one next weekend. That will give me a better idea of weight of the updated design.


I'm still all ears on additional thoughts/input.

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 Post subject: Re: Official CF/FG Hood Discussion/Status Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:45 am 
Second Gear
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 2:12 pm
Posts: 280
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
I would also prefer the stock look, proper hinges etc, although us a template is included I'm sure I can do some minor custom fab. I would also vote for the cutout for a scoop, one that fits the stock scoop and allows for the use of bugeye scoops. On a side note, did you ever put thought into fenders as well? I think I remember reading about something of the sort in another thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Official CF/FG Hood Discussion/Status Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:15 am 
Fourth Gear
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2007 4:35 am
Posts: 1734
Location: All over the place
I like the look of that scoop. But I do feel like the cutout will be the biggest crowd pleaser. I'd be interested in hearing from thoughts of the TMIC guys.


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 Post subject: Re: Official CF/FG Hood Discussion/Status Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:19 am 
quasi-mod-o
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Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 6:11 am
Posts: 2753
Location: Charlotte, NC
Wow, that looks awesome!


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 Post subject: Re: Official CF/FG Hood Discussion/Status Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:56 am 
First Gear
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:09 pm
Posts: 80
Location: Northern Idaho
Thank you again for all the input guys, keep it coming!

So far, this is my current option/proposal list -
1. I will work out a cost for the threaded inserts, installed. I am happy to leave this to you if you want to save money and do it on your own (it's really not hard if you're careful).
2. I will work on creating a formal flat pattern to work off of for the rear hinges.
3. I will not have a front stock hood latch mount/attachment - if someone is truly interested in this option then we can approach it as a custom route as the base laminate/structure will need modified to handle the different load path.
4. I will create a mold insert for the hood scope so that if desired - you will have a stock sized recess for mounting which ever hood scoop you want - only the recess will be present and you will be responsible for drilling mounting holes as needed.

NOTE - Item 4 means you will either choose between the molded hood scoop shown in the pictures or a recess.


My new core is due to arrive on Friday and I am still planning on laying up the next full fiberglass hood on Sat. I have some black dyed 2x2 twill fiberglass to 'resemble carbon fiber' (side by side, there's a fair difference in sheen). This hood will ultimately be for sale once I have the inserts mounted and quoted.

After making the fiberglass hood and confirming labor, materials and design - I will provide final pricing.


Speezly - I am not planning on fenders at this time. In truth, it is hard to see much weight reduction for such a thin sheet metal part and tooling to create both fenders is going to be north of $5k. I am making parts for the BBS because I love my SS and am willing to take a hit on the tooling for the sake of getting cool parts for my own car and for advertising myself at the track.


Please let me know if there are any questions and if there is anything else I can do to help.

Thank you.

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 Post subject: Re: Official CF/FG Hood Discussion/Status Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:32 pm 
Second Gear
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:50 pm
Posts: 380
Location: St. Louis, MO
For the weight concious, I believe the stock hood is somewhere around 35 pounds? Don't quote me on that. I need to weigh the one in my garage. It's tempting to look into this, especially the full CF version for my rally car if it can save me 25-30 pounds. Right now I plan on hacking it up considerably.


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 Post subject: Re: Official CF/FG Hood Discussion/Status Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:19 pm 
First Gear
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:09 pm
Posts: 80
Location: Northern Idaho
Gentleman,

I got the 'test' hood made the other week. The 2x2 twill black fiberglass has been discontinued from the manufacturer for a while and now I know why - it has the work-ability and drape properties of cardboard. Insert long line of expletives here, and then repeat. It was not fun fabric to work with. That said, it came out weight 10.1lb untrimmed and will need a little sanding and filler to pretty up.

I'm going to sand it up and put a little lightweight aerospace filler to smooth out the pinholes and then prime it. Because it is not perfect and will likely show some if it has a really nice paint job - I'll be selling it for a bit cheaper, $350.

Not aesthetically perfect but it did provide verification of the new laminate schedule and I'm tweaking things just slightly for the next one to drop a little more weight.

I believe the full carbon version will come in around 6.5 - 7.5lbs prior to paint. And MConte, I believe you are right that the stock hood is round 35 - 38lbs.

I have updated the original post to provide pricing information. However, for the ease of reference -

Version 1 - $505.00
Version 2 - $595.00
Version 3 - $790.00

I will install the threaded inserts in the rear for an additional $40.00.

The colored kevlar/carbon first ply PITA charge is an additional $20.00.

Please let me know if there are any questions. I will be out of town most of next week but I'll have internet access while I'm out.

Thank you.

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Last edited by Northwind Composites on Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Official CF/FG Hood Discussion/Status Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:22 pm 
Fourth Gear
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2007 4:35 am
Posts: 1734
Location: All over the place
Umm... I think you listed the prices backwards. Not that I'd mind the full carbon version also being cheapest :)


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 Post subject: Re: Official CF/FG Hood Discussion/Status Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:28 pm 
First Gear
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:09 pm
Posts: 80
Location: Northern Idaho
Fixed, I just get excited and always think carbon is cool so of course it would be number 1 :).

Thank you :).

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 Post subject: Re: Official CF/FG Hood Discussion/Status Thread
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:27 pm 
Third Gear
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:05 pm
Posts: 664
Location: Montreal Quebec
hello there i am a little confuse about this statement
the existing molded in scoop that is shown in the pictures or a "molded in recess that matches the size of the existing SS scoop to allow mounting of your own scoop"

do you have any actual picture im kinda like the fact that i cant bolt on different scoop ect...
im kinda prefere in two pieces is that what you mean any picture of it?

im stacking up money for a hood ill get one pretty much soon
probably fiber version since just the shipping will kill me in montreal? h1z3k3 quebec


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 Post subject: Re: Official CF/FG Hood Discussion/Status Thread
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 7:46 pm 
First Gear
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:09 pm
Posts: 80
Location: Northern Idaho
Howdy,

Sorry for the late reply, I've been swamped finishing up my small curing oven these last couple of weeks.

I do not have any pictures for the other style scoop mount. What I mean though is that I will make an insert that will go into the mold before any fabric. The insert will create a flat mounting spot in the hood that is identical to the mounting spot in our standard SS hood.

I have not made this insert yet as interest has seemed to be low and I've had other projects to work on. Once I know you're about ready to pull the trigger then I'll make the insert and get it ready.

As far as shipping costs, I can ship with whomever you would like and my zip code is 83864.

Just let me know if there are any additional questions or anything more I can do to help.

Thank you,

Lee

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 Post subject: Re: Official CF/FG Hood Discussion/Status Thread
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 9:50 am 
Third Gear
Joined: Thu May 03, 2012 6:24 am
Posts: 742
Location: Bonney Lake, WA
any updates on this? im very interested!


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 Post subject: Re: Official CF/FG Hood Discussion/Status Thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 2:02 pm 
First Gear
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:09 pm
Posts: 80
Location: Northern Idaho
The update is very simple - I've been ready to take orders since Feb. What is posted here is what is available. There is also a page on my website for the hood that is a little more condensed than this thread - http://northwindcomposites.com/products/automotive/subaru-bcbf-legacy-hood/

I have not taken any further detailed action such as different scoop inserts or such due to lack of interest.

I've been busy working on several other projects and before I accept an order I will need to double check my cloth and resin inventory. Please let me know if you have any questions or there is anything I can do to help.

Thank you,

Lee

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 Post subject: Re: Official CF/FG Hood Discussion/Status Thread
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 12:54 am 
Third Gear
Joined: Thu May 03, 2012 6:24 am
Posts: 742
Location: Bonney Lake, WA
you wouldnt happen to have some sort of deal with aerocatch, would you?! haha those shits are expensive!


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 Post subject: Re: Official CF/FG Hood Discussion/Status Thread
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:08 pm 
First Gear
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:09 pm
Posts: 80
Location: Northern Idaho
I do not have any deals with Aerocatch. And yes, they are expensive but they are also high quality.

Ultimately, these hoods are designed and built for track use and mounting is left to the end user. I have posted what I use and recommend but I'm sure you could mount them with standard hood pins or other methods.

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 Post subject: Re: Official CF/FG Hood Discussion/Status Thread
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:38 pm 
Third Gear
Joined: Thu May 03, 2012 6:24 am
Posts: 742
Location: Bonney Lake, WA
naw, if im going to spend the money for a custom cf hood, im going to get good latches. ive had a hood come up and shatter the windshield, not fun.


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 Post subject: Re: Official CF/FG Hood Discussion/Status Thread
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 7:02 pm 
In Neutral
Joined: Mon May 03, 2010 3:55 am
Posts: 36
Location: Tri-State; NY; (631)
WOW Lee... WOW!!!,

Absolutely fantastic. Somehow (even as a regular visitor to the LCBBS for many years) I am ~just~ seeing this truly amazing hood option now!!! Happy 5 year anniversary and great wishes for success to Northwind Composite!

Kindly verify... True or False? Your personal hood seems to make use of a maroonish (close to winestone) colored kevlar layer...

Any updates including availability/pics of the aforementioned 2015 prototype piece?

Below data may be helpful in opening up the market of your seemingly EXCELLENT Early Legacy Hood product line:

I am running a 1990 Legacy LS Naturally Aspirated 2.2L 'Pre-Facelift' Wagon.
1) Wildlife impact buckled original hood.
2) Found clean 'unicorn' pre-facelift (turbo) hood in matched color!
3) Hood Latch failed destroying the clean ~replacement~ also! SIGH.
4) Power research provided unclear; anecdotal evidence of post-facelift hoods sharing rear hinge mount patterns.
5) Actual purchase and test install of factory steel post-facelift hood verifies: Same rear hinge setup, pre-facelift fenders 4mm off post-facelift hood corner 'line', and slight overhang of hood (aproximately 12mm). Shims/spacers to headlights, early grill, and hoodlatch should be able to offset/'flush out' overhang difference.

NOTE: This thread does not seem to allow image tags at the moment, so photos of subtle differences of the pre and post-facelift hoods can be sent via alternative methods on members' requests.

In other words, with ~slight~ mod to mold or ~slight~ mod to existing Northwind Composite's Fiberglass, Hybrid, or Carbon Hood Units, pre-facelift Legacy owners could potentially benefit from Lee's fine offering!

Hope this helps; Kanpai,
#89


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