Tyler's Legacy SS.... under an impreza shell

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dankberries
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Re: Tyler's Legacy SS.... under an impreza shell

Post by dankberries »

Wow! Awesome! I'm a bit jealous.
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Re: Tyler's Legacy SS.... under an impreza shell

Post by bmxpunk »

Thanks! I will post a full video when the navi is finished editing.

The problem is I am now starting to shake with withdrawals and I won't be able to race again until September do to work and weddings. From there I am planning on Snowdrift and Idaho rallies for 2014, as well as more a colorado hill climbs.


I also need to change a few things with the car. I want to add a rear sway bar like the 17mm from a forester Xt or a 19mm from an 05 STI if anyone is looking to part with either one of those.

I am also looking to upgrade the center and rear diffs. I found a company who can actually modify the viscous coupling from the stok 4kg to a 20kg by machining it apart changing he fluid and laser welding it back together. It's just a possibility at the point if I can't find a 12kg/20kg/dccd for the 5 speed.

Also looking for a clutch type rear diff.

I think between the suspension and diffs I can make he rear as sharp and predictable as the front and the car will be easier to push.

On top if that I want more confidence from the brakes. I had to move my bias full forward which shouldn't be the case. The problem was compounded by hard Pirelli Wrc control tires from 2009. Really hoping it's a pad and rotor issue and not a need to change master cylinder sizes.

Down the road I am looking for a 1 piece drive shaft and lexan side windows to ease in strut servicing. NEVER BUILD A COUPE RALLY CAR!!!
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Re: Tyler's Legacy SS.... under an impreza shell

Post by Legacy777 »

What type of brake issues are you having?
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Re: Tyler's Legacy SS.... under an impreza shell

Post by bmxpunk »

I am not super confident with them and its a multi part problem I think. in my video you can see the rear of the car come over on both left turns @ 33sec & 43 sec (in the vid). This run was our last and that was the least eventful time. Over the weekend I slowly moved bias forward which made things better but not great.

1. Throttle and brake pedal are super close, so I stand on both at the same time. I bent the pedal over on day two to alleviate most of the problem.

2. The brakes just don't feel powerful enough. They will work only if I stand on them hard. With the dual master cylinder set-up I am running a 0.7" master on the front, 0.8125" on the rear and a 0.625" for the handbrake. The handbrake is very powerful however. The calipers are legacy turbo front and rear. Using the info from your spreadsheet Josh, I have bias at 77% front if the balance bar is centered. I don't know what it is with my bias shifted forward.

3. The car sat for almost a year without being driven so there was some surface rust on the rotors when I started to drive it a few months back. Before the race I took off the pads and rotors and used a rotary sander to clean everything up (most of the rust was gone just from driving it around. I am wondering if I may just need new pads and rotors. I am on stock rotors, with EBC Yellow stuff pads which worked excellently in the old car.
4. My tires are old and worn which only compounded the problem. I was on hard compound Pirelli WRC control tires from 2010 and they are much different (worse) than the Michelins I used in the old car.

5. I currently have no rear sway bar. I have the 19mm STi front but I don't know if adding a rear would make it more predictable or have a tendency to come around even more. I have been trying to find a 17mm,19mm, & 20mm to see how they do. I also know with a gravel car, I don't want to limit body roll too much or restrict the independent suspension much.


For solutions, I know I need new tires. that will have to wait until just before the next event. For brakes, I don't know what to do. Just do new pads and rotors? Switch our master cylinders? I am considering going to LGT rotors and calipers in the rear and wrx in the front if they will fit under my 15" wheels (which I am headed out to try).

You have any other suggestions?
2011 Mini Countryman S All4
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Re: Tyler's Legacy SS.... under an impreza shell

Post by Legacy777 »

It sounds like you may have a couple different issues, handling/suspension, braking, and tires. Unfortunately, they are all interdependent.

It sounds like you need new tires....you know that...and obviously that will affect how the car brakes, handles, etc.

From purely a braking perspective, I would suggest doing some testing on pavement to the limit of brake lock up. Under straight line braking on pavement, how does the car feel? Does it nose dive heavily, do the rears lock up easily when the weight shifts, and how does the car feel?

I think if you can isolate the tires in or out of the equation, that is where you need start. If you are too easily locking the tires up under hard braking, no matter what you try, I would attribute that to needing more grip (better tires). However, if you're just locking up the fronts or rears, or just not stopping well at all, I'd attribute that to bias issues and/or pads.

Are your MC's power assisted or non-power assisted? Do you have any additional bias control device (Proportioning valve, etc) besides the balance bar on the MC's?
Josh

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Re: Tyler's Legacy SS.... under an impreza shell

Post by bmxpunk »

I have used different tires for testing gravel, snow, and street all tested on the asphalt. I was having similar issues and the rear would lock up before the front. The front never really dives no matter the pressure I put into the pedal.

I have no other proportioning device and there is no form of assist. Which I really like the feel of. The pedal is solid and travel is minimal like 2" at most but I doubt even that much
2011 Mini Countryman S All4
1970 Honda Ct90
2001 Forester S of Doom - mowed down by a Cummins
1994/5/6/01/02/03/04/06/07/08 Impregacy OUtback SS STi Type R money pit- NEW RALLYCAR!!
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Re: Tyler's Legacy SS.... under an impreza shell

Post by Legacy777 »

I guess after looking over your previous thread, I'd ask the question why you're running a 0.7" bore front MC and a 0.8125" bore rear MC. On a stock turbo legacy brake setup the front calipers have 2.5 times more volume requirements than the rears (assuming the same amount of caliper piston travel). So in my mind, it doesn't make sense to have the larger MC on the rear brakes. The front brakes are not doing the amount of work they should be doing. Can you easily swap the MC's so the fronts are using the larger MC?

The caveat....and it's a small one is that the smaller bore MC will produce higher brake pressures with the same amount of input pedal force. However, if the MC cannot supply the volume requirements, then you won't be able to build the pressure you want. So that's why MC sizing is very important, especially in your dual MC setup.

The other thing to keep in mind is that on the stock brake setup the front and rear brakes get an equal amount of brake pressure until the pressure in the lines reach the split point in the proportioning valve and it starts to cut pressure to the rear brakes. Your setup does not do this, so you are experiencing a predetermined bias that you dialed in with the bias bar. This is probably more predicitable, but also requires a bit more to setup just right IMO.

So yeah....if you swap the MC's around, that's what I'd suggest trying next.
Josh

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Re: Tyler's Legacy SS.... under an impreza shell

Post by bmxpunk »

Hmm the guy who gave me master cylinder sizes works for Performance Friction and generally deals with ALMS cars but rallies in his spare time.

The problem with switching the master cylinders is nearly halve my front break torque and double my rear brake torque which would compound the problem more I would think.
2011 Mini Countryman S All4
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1994/5/6/01/02/03/04/06/07/08 Impregacy OUtback SS STi Type R money pit- NEW RALLYCAR!!
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Re: Tyler's Legacy SS.... under an impreza shell

Post by Legacy777 »

How are you determining that...based off my spreadsheet?

As I mentioned in my post above, yes the smaller MC will produce a higher pressure, BUT if it can't supply enough volume to the front brake system to build that pressure with a given pedal stroke, then it doesn't matter.

Can you take some pictures of your dual MC setup so I can see exactly how the bias bar and pedal assembly is setup?
Josh

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Re: Tyler's Legacy SS.... under an impreza shell

Post by bmxpunk »

The only thing I used the spreadsheet for was for the size of the caliper pistons and the effective brake diameter. I gave those to a gentleman who does brakes for Lemans teams and the Ford WRC team and he shot me back giving me the master cylinder sizes.
Here is what he said:
"Is this for an AWD car or FWD? If its an AWD car then about 75% split will be fine. The master sizes being talked here are good for torque and split but with the 6:1 pedal ratio and those kinds of calipers the pedal is going to feel very mushy. Running a .625 (5/8) in the front is asking for trouble because it will make a long pedal and if the fluid starts to overheat then you'll start to run out of pedal real quick.

7/10s in the front and 13/16s in the rear is the best compromise for a good bias and firm pedal. Turn the bias to the rear 2 turns, elongate the front mc rod 5mm longer than the rear and it should be all set. Run the same friction pads front and rear."

After that I used the same data as I gave him to compare all master cylinder choices I had to see why he chose those for my given caliper and rotor setup.

I forgot I never posted pictures of the brake setup.
Image

Here is the pedalbox setup with the lines plumbed. Yes the master cylinders are underfoot like the mid 2000's Subaru wrc car.
Image

And here it is with everything cleaned up and the (temporary) cover in place.
Image
2011 Mini Countryman S All4
1970 Honda Ct90
2001 Forester S of Doom - mowed down by a Cummins
1994/5/6/01/02/03/04/06/07/08 Impregacy OUtback SS STi Type R money pit- NEW RALLYCAR!!
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Re: Tyler's Legacy SS.... under an impreza shell

Post by Legacy777 »

I understand his comment regarding elongating the front MC rod so that it will move more volume before the rear starts engaging. However, I'm not very familiar with the bias bar setup for the dual MC's. Do you have any blown up pictures or a link to the MC setup online where I could see how the MC is setup?
Josh

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Re: Tyler's Legacy SS.... under an impreza shell

Post by bmxpunk »

I will get a picture.

I emailed tilton since I have their master cylinders. His belief is that I mathematically, I don't have enough rear brake and should have the 13/16" (0.812") front and rear. But he said that doesn't align with what I am feeling in the car. Looks like I may be buying a few more masters and doing some testing.
2011 Mini Countryman S All4
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2001 Forester S of Doom - mowed down by a Cummins
1994/5/6/01/02/03/04/06/07/08 Impregacy OUtback SS STi Type R money pit- NEW RALLYCAR!!
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Re: Tyler's Legacy SS.... under an impreza shell

Post by bmxpunk »

I ordered a .75 master cylinder to do some testing with. I am going to try it out in front and rear to see how it is. Finally found others with a dual setup and they are running .7 front .75 rear which is what I bet I will end up with. I see pedal travel increasing a bit but not much and I think feel with be marginally softer but all for the better.

Have I ever mentioned that because of the large rear master cylinder now, the pedal just barely fully comes off the brake light switch. So my pedal travel at my toes is 6x the length of the button on the switch which really isn't long.


Also I pulled apart all of the suspension again to clean things up and paint to prevent some rust. I found some issues with my struts like a nick and the chrome plating flaking off. I also had to do some hand machining to make the struts fit correctly since they weren't fully in the top hats but they were so solid I couldn't tell before. Only noticed when the front springs started sticking when I was trying to turn and they would bind up and make atrocious noises. That's all fixed now.

Speaking of suspension. I found that withe the car 1" over stock height, I am 65% into the travel in the rear and about 30% in the front. Seems strange to me with my cycling background where sag is generally more even.
2011 Mini Countryman S All4
1970 Honda Ct90
2001 Forester S of Doom - mowed down by a Cummins
1994/5/6/01/02/03/04/06/07/08 Impregacy OUtback SS STi Type R money pit- NEW RALLYCAR!!
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Re: Tyler's Legacy SS.... under an impreza shell

Post by Legacy777 »

Well let us know how the new MC works out and feels.
Josh

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Re: Tyler's Legacy SS.... under an impreza shell

Post by bmxpunk »

Will do Josh, if it ever gets here. It's probably on time I am just impatient. Also picked up an innovative LC-1 last week for some tuning.

Looking for a new center and rear diff in the mean time. Anybody looking to sell one?

Does anyone know for sure the NA gear sets are weaker than the turbo? I have a 1.8l tranny and an 05 legacy L headset and they share some ratios with early wrx and RA boxes so I am considering dropping them in until I can afford a nicer gear set or six speed.

Found some issues with my suspension and thing I cleared some things up. Had to do some filing to make my strut tops fit correctly since they weren't perfect before. Changed up preload/ ride height some.
Also started to retina the windows to get the purple off of it. Still deciding on polycarbonate rear side windows or just removing them to to re tint. CHCA rules state that all windows must be lexan or safety glass and Therefore taped or tinted.
Image


Still trying to figure out what swaybar, mount, and end link combo will work with my arms throughout the range of travel. Anyone know if forester sways are different from impreza?


So before next event in September here is what HAS to be done:
1.tune
2.steering rack (hopefully sti) & cooler
3. At least rear lsd diff possibly center
4. Roof scoop I can't believe how hot it is, there is a reason it is white inside.
5. Possibly an oil cooler. Will be a bigger issue for stage rallies vs the hill climbs.


Getting ready for next year, I am considering higher compression pistons to compensate for the 34mm restrictor but I need to find someone with experience in restrictors to bounce some ideas around with.
2011 Mini Countryman S All4
1970 Honda Ct90
2001 Forester S of Doom - mowed down by a Cummins
1994/5/6/01/02/03/04/06/07/08 Impregacy OUtback SS STi Type R money pit- NEW RALLYCAR!!
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Re: Tyler's Legacy SS.... under an impreza shell

Post by bmxpunk »

The 0.75" master for the rear brakes is the ticket! Both master cylinders' push rods now travel the same distance and the pedal travel barely increased. The pedal feel is marginally more spongy but its much easier to feel the brakes through the pedal now.
2011 Mini Countryman S All4
1970 Honda Ct90
2001 Forester S of Doom - mowed down by a Cummins
1994/5/6/01/02/03/04/06/07/08 Impregacy OUtback SS STi Type R money pit- NEW RALLYCAR!!
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Re: Tyler's Legacy SS.... under an impreza shell

Post by Legacy777 »

Glad to hear that seems to have fixed or helped the issue.
Josh

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Re: Tyler's Legacy SS.... under an impreza shell

Post by bmxpunk »

Back to the drawing board. Last Monday night both rear brakes caught on fire while I was driving up our mountain. Have 25 days to find and repair the problem as recharge a fire extinguisher. Grrr....
Image
2011 Mini Countryman S All4
1970 Honda Ct90
2001 Forester S of Doom - mowed down by a Cummins
1994/5/6/01/02/03/04/06/07/08 Impregacy OUtback SS STi Type R money pit- NEW RALLYCAR!!
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Re: Tyler's Legacy SS.... under an impreza shell

Post by Legacy777 »

That sucks!

So do you think the brake master change you made caused this? I'm guessing the brakes were dragging or something like that to get that hot.
Josh

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Re: Tyler's Legacy SS.... under an impreza shell

Post by bmxpunk »

The only thing I can think of was I cut the master cylinder push rod down on the first master I tried, but not the new piece. So I am going to trim it and see if it was a clearance issue.

The sliders and the pistons moved freely even though they were torched after I pulled them so I don't believe it was the calipers at all.

So now do I rebuild, or upgrade?
2011 Mini Countryman S All4
1970 Honda Ct90
2001 Forester S of Doom - mowed down by a Cummins
1994/5/6/01/02/03/04/06/07/08 Impregacy OUtback SS STi Type R money pit- NEW RALLYCAR!!
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Re: Tyler's Legacy SS.... under an impreza shell

Post by Legacy777 »

The only drawback to upgrading is you change the brake bias setup you've become used to, and have to dial everything back in again.
Josh

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Re: Tyler's Legacy SS.... under an impreza shell

Post by bmxpunk »

Yeah Josh you make a logical point. But every time this car has been "down" it's completely different when everything is together again. So why change that now, right?

I got a line on some low mileage 06 legacy gt calipers that was too good to pass up and since I have to replace the rotors anyway that won't really be any more of an expense. I may even have a single DBA 4000 rotor for an lot in the garage...

I also am getting my old rear LSD back because the friend I gave it to sold his car and is no longer doing the manual swap. So I have just under 3 weeks to complete the brakes, swap in the diff, recharge a fire extinguisher, and come up with money for an entry fee and fuel.
2011 Mini Countryman S All4
1970 Honda Ct90
2001 Forester S of Doom - mowed down by a Cummins
1994/5/6/01/02/03/04/06/07/08 Impregacy OUtback SS STi Type R money pit- NEW RALLYCAR!!
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Re: Tyler's Legacy SS.... under an impreza shell

Post by SILINC3R »

Any updates?
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Re: Tyler's Legacy SS.... under an impreza shell

Post by bmxpunk »

I haven't got much more accomplished. The 34mm restrictor arrived about 2 weeks ago so I am looking for another compressor housing to machine out to accomadate the restrictor.

As the rules changed for safety gear on January 1 this year most of my money has gone into a new helmet and new Hybrid device instead of the HANS.

I have a hillclimb over Mother's Day and have been looking for some new tires with minimal budget to work with.

But the major goal this year is for Rally Idaho so between now and then the restrictor, a tune, a steering rack, and some cooling upgrades are a must to make sure I finish the event. I am very open to suggestions and help on the steering and cooling. I am thinking some duct work for the radiator, an oil cooler and a power steering cooler as well.
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1970 Honda Ct90
2001 Forester S of Doom - mowed down by a Cummins
1994/5/6/01/02/03/04/06/07/08 Impregacy OUtback SS STi Type R money pit- NEW RALLYCAR!!
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Re: Tyler's Legacy SS.... under an impreza shell

Post by beatersubi »

Have you considered a de-power of the rack? That would eliminate a lot of parts and potential problems.
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