kimokalihi's 91 SS EJ20 Swap

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rob
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Re: kimokalihi's 91 SS EJ20 Swap

Post by rob »

Hey Kimo,

Terrible news on your motor! What have your AFRs looked liked over the past couple months? Perhaps the boost line to your FPR started leaking or came off entirely? Did you ever install your FCD?

-Rob
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Re: kimokalihi's 91 SS EJ20 Swap

Post by rob »

Hey Kimo,

Can you confirm the part # for the MAF you are using?

-Rob
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Re: kimokalihi's 91 SS EJ20 Swap

Post by kimokalihi »

AFRs were fine as far as I know. They were I think around 11.5-12 wide open and 14.7 on idle and cruise. I'm not sure what it's supposed to be wide open. I still think it was only the one cylinder that was detonating because the AFR gauge never showed lean conditions meaning it must've stepped up the fuel delivery to compensate for a lean condition in one cylinder. After all there's no way for the ECU to tell if it's one cylinder running lean or all of them.

I can get you the part number on the MAF. It's a JDM JECS I believe but I'll get the number when I have time.
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Re: kimokalihi's 91 SS EJ20 Swap

Post by rob »

Is it the same MAF that you have pictured at the beginning of the thread?

The ECU doesn't modify fueling when it's in open loop mode, so it wouldn't be able to compensate the WOT AFRs. On my tune you should see WOT AFRs around 11.1. !2:1 is nearly a point leaner. That may not be the smoking gun, but it is an interesting data point.

It's also interesting that once you fixed the speedo cable it ran fine for a while, then over the past couple months the knock light started sporatically going off; IIRC, even not under load. Also I thought you mentioned that you started running into fuel cut more often around this time and had considered installing a FCD. Can you expand on that and if you did install the FCD?

-Rob
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Re: kimokalihi's 91 SS EJ20 Swap

Post by kimokalihi »

I have to double check on the MAF. I have like 3 of them I think and I don't know which one wound up on the engine.

It ran great at first after the speedo was hooked up. But that lasted like 3 weeks. Then it started knocking a lot on closed loop for the first couple miles I drove it when I started it up. It would blink around 16-20 times in bursts of 2-4 at a time. But it didn't do it after it warmed up so I thought it might still be learning and adjusting. As I kept driving it every day it started blinking once in a while after it warmed up but it did it only when I let off the gas sometimes or if I started to mildly accelerate usually up a hill. Then near the end of it's life it began to blink once in a while when I punched it. Then it ate the piston rings on cylinder number 2 and spit out all my oil and burned a ton of it too.

I never ended up installing my adjustable TurboXS FCD because I was already worried about the knock issue and didn't think it was a good idea to install the FCD since it must have been hitting fuel cut for a reason. I forgot to mention over time it started hitting fuel cut at really low boost levels like 10psi. It usually wouldn't do it once the engine was hot though. The weird thing was it would hit fuel cut starting around 10-13 psi but then it would accelerate a bit more while building more boost and then hit fuel cut again and again and again and still go up to like 16lbs before it wouldn't let me make anymore boost.

This thing just confuses the hell out of me. I didn't think it was a boost issue because the knock would happen on warm up while cruising down the road at 35mph with zero boost and no load.
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Re: kimokalihi's 91 SS EJ20 Swap

Post by rob »

Just from how you describe it, I don't think you were hitting overboost fuel cut. It sounds more to me like an intermittent fuel delivery problem. I would investigate your fuel pump wiring to see if you can find any suspect connections and or something in your tank/lines that was blocking your flow. The other thought as I mentioned before is the vacuum line to the FPR.

Just FYI, on your tune the fuel cut is technically completely eliminated. However, there is MAP sensor failsafe boost cut that I did not override. The ECU will sense a constantly pegged MAP sensor signal and determines it is faulty (without a CEL BTW). It then references the MAF value as a backup and then determines if there is an overboost (or overflow in this case) condition, and if so, causes the boost cut.

The stock MAP sensor is good to 1.25BAR, so that is why I say it has a 18psi boost cut.

-Rob
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Re: kimokalihi's 91 SS EJ20 Swap

Post by kimokalihi »

Oh I see that makes sense. I don't know where the FPR is or what it looks like. I suppose by tracing vacuum lines and fuel lines I could find it pretty easily. Is it the metal round thing on the passenger side of the intake connected to the fuel line?

The fuel pump is a brand new Walbro 255 so that should be fine. Wiring is a possibility.
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Re: kimokalihi's 91 SS EJ20 Swap

Post by kimokalihi »

Here's the part number from the JECS MAF I had on my engine.

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Here's the 3 spares I have. One Autecs, one JECS and the aluminum EJ22T Hitachi MAF.

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Removed the right side cylinder head. Doesn't appear to be any traces of detonation on pistons 1 and 3. Strange.

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Re: kimokalihi's 91 SS EJ20 Swap

Post by Legacy777 »

That is strange #2 cyl died. I can't say that's the "normal" cylinder to go. I will agree that your AFR's were a little little on the lean side, 11 to 1 is what mine tapers down to once it hits boost.

I'm in agreement with what Steve said.....hot spot. There's nothing too much else that stands out, and from what you described about the knock sensor and the detonation on the cylinder, you had issues for a little while. If the fuel pump is good and the injectors are good.....I just can't see that it was a fuel issue (it could be, but process of elimination doesn't put fuel towards the top of the list).

I would suggest checking the fuel rails very closely for clogs, especially the rubber section connecting the metal ones. Also, Check the oil passages for any blockage that could have lead to hot spots due to lack of oil flow. Same goes for the coolant passages. I'd be curious to see what the bearings look like and if there's anything out of the ordinary with #2 rod bearing.

Keep us updated as you disassemble the motor further. Pay attention for any small clues or things that look out of the ordinary.
Josh

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Re: kimokalihi's 91 SS EJ20 Swap

Post by rob »

Yes Kimo, that is the correct MAF. I was a little concerned because the picture on page 1 was from the mutant late model Forester ej20g.

Josh, the reason I would still look at fueling is that Kimo describes having "fuel cut" issues. The fact that I know his ECU is set to only cut at 18psi, and that the behavior is intermittent and he was still able to build boost past one of these events, suggests to me fuel starvation. It is very much like the behavior we see with later GC fuel tanks, typically in competition. On long right hand sweepers under heavy load the fuel sloshes to the left part of the tank and the fuel pump will run dry. I have experienced this after my swap in RallyCross with anything less than 5/8 of a tank! Anybody autocrossing a turbo GC will probably have run into this as well.

The symptom is simply a sputter, cut in power and then a return as the fuel is redeliverd. The first time it happened to me, i thought I had hit fuel cut. However I have a Defi fuel pressure gauge and received a warning buzz, so I let off and babied the rest of the run. Upon replay of my recorded run, I could see my fuel pressure drop to about 10psi.

I can imagine that if I had done this a few times and kept my foot in throughout, I would have been in danger of running excessively lean and detonating my engine to death.

Kimo's description matches what fuel starvation would feel and that's why I think it's important to throughly inspect the fuel delivery system. The pump is brand new, so you might be able to give it a pass. But like I said, I would look at the wiring first, or a damaged rubber line in the tank. IIRC, Kimo battled a fuel leak several times. Maybe the leak was related or perhaps the constant in and out of the components looking for the leak caused it.

Also, on the idea of a hot spot, from what I have read, hot spots lead to pre-igntion more than detonation. Pre-igntion would show itself as a hole burned into the piston and melting of the spark plug.

-Rob
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Re: kimokalihi's 91 SS EJ20 Swap

Post by kimokalihi »

Very interesting stuff. I did seem to notice it the most on a certain corner I always accelerate around which happens to be a right hand turn on my way home from work about 4 miles from work. I wish there weren't so many variables to look at :( It's overwhelming and I feel like I lack the tools and experience/knowledge to properly troubleshoot it. I can check the fuel lines, that seems easy enough.

Rob, you mentioned earlier maybe the Fuel Pressure Regulator but wouldn't that affect all 4 cylinders? I guess same goes for any fuel pump/tank delivery problem. Why only one cylinder? Does this engine have oil squirters? Possibly one is not working causing that piston to run hotter?
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Re: kimokalihi's 91 SS EJ20 Swap

Post by rob »

Yes if it was the FPR having trouble intermittently is would affect all cylinders. Maybe #2 was runs the hottest? Perhaps the pitting of the piston was there before you got the car and this detonation resulted in a cracked ring land instead? I would have thought you would have seem more evidence on plug #2, but it looks pretty much the same as the others.

Yes, there are a lot of variables, and not a lot of data. I think you will have to accept that you may never know why. As long as you go through all of the areas of concern and verify all is in order, then that's probably as much as you can do. When you get it back on the road, just remember to take it easy for some time and watch the AFRs and knock light on low boost. When you are comfortable, then *gradually* raise boost back up. If you get any signs of bad behavior, back out of it and drop the boost down. Then back to trouble shooting depending on the data you collected.

What are your current plans for the car?

-Rob
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Re: kimokalihi's 91 SS EJ20 Swap

Post by rob »

Local short block that I spotted in the classifieds...

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthr ... ight=ej20g
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Re: kimokalihi's 91 SS EJ20 Swap

Post by Legacy777 »

Rob,

That's good a point about the fuel delivery/starvation. Like you said, there's a lot of variables and not much data.
Josh

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Re: kimokalihi's 91 SS EJ20 Swap

Post by kimokalihi »

My plans for the car were to drive it for the winter and go snowboarding and just enjoy a quick car. Then eventually build a 2.5 block and go to FMIC with 6MT swap, R180, Meth and Stand Alone EM. But that's in the distant future.

I PM'd the guy in Portland about the EJ20G block. Does it matter what year/car it's from? Can you use phase 2 blocks with phase 1 heads? I'm not familiar with all the subaru engines. Were all the EJ20G engines phase 1?
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Re: kimokalihi's 91 SS EJ20 Swap

Post by rob »

The fact that you have the weird Forester version has me a little unsure. My guess is that any G motor will work as is with any G heads. I suggest posting in the pre-2002 section on Nasioc. Marnix will know the answer.

-Rob
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Re: kimokalihi's 91 SS EJ20 Swap

Post by kimokalihi »

The guy with the EJ20G on NASIOC hasn't been on in a few days so he's not replying to my PM :(

I've really been cleaning my mom's garage out like crazy lately. Tomorrow I'm going to haul all the trash (and there's a lot of it) out and a bunch of junk that's just been sitting in there for years. There's going to be more space in there than I can ever remember there being and I've lived there from when I was 3 until I was 21.

I weedwacked in front of the garage and got rid of a pile of garbage that was sitting in front of the garage. Made a space for my car to park so it's not under the walnut tree anymore getting leaves on it which stain the paint. I was worried about nails so I put my old wheels and tires on and rolled the car over to it's new space. Then I snapped a pic and decided to wash it and then washed my wheels before putting them away in the garage.

Everything feels so much better when things are cleaned and clutter free.

The SS looks so much less intimidating without the black Rotas.

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Re: kimokalihi's 91 SS EJ20 Swap

Post by SubyFusion »

This makes me sad= ( you need to get this bitch running all that potential just sitting there! on the other hand it gives you more time to do things like cleaning lol
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Re: kimokalihi's 91 SS EJ20 Swap

Post by kimokalihi »

Makes me sad too. I can't even go any further with it. I'm so broke I just overdrew my account twice at $28 a pop. Fuckin pissed. I don't know how that happened but it sucks.
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Re: kimokalihi's 91 SS EJ20 Swap

Post by bmxkelowna »

just read the last few pages of your build starting around the motor damage
ive melted two pistons on two separate times both of mine were #4
i find it very strange that you melted #2 on your motor although if i think about it, my friend with a 93 jdm wrx melted #2

my problem turned out to be an injector that at high rpm would fail some of the time, it confused the guy doing my injectors so we replaced that one, cleaned all 4 and bumped them from 370 to 418cc, at the same time i replaced my two year old walbro 255 with a new one and crushed the stock FPR a little more to add some fuel pressure.

here is a link to some photos of my melted pistons
http://bbs.legacycentral.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=44485

i hope youre able to get a new block (or just a piston like i did the second time as long as your walls are good) in shortly!
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Re: kimokalihi's 91 SS EJ20 Swap

Post by Florin1 »

This is very interesting Logan. Kimo, if you remember before WCSS 12 when i was scrambling for 1 440 injector... Well guess what, it was the same #2 cylinder injector that went bad on mine too. Weird...

Logan, my car has a 20g 96 wrx motor in it. Very interesting...
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Re: kimokalihi's 91 SS EJ20 Swap

Post by kimokalihi »

I really doubt it's my injectors. For a couple reasons. Witchhunter checked them out and cleaned them and they passed with flying colors. I don't think it's an RPM related issue at all, nor is it boost related because there was knock with no boost when the engine was cold at very low RPMs with almost no load. Just cruising down a street at 35mph it would knock. But once it warmed up, it pretty much disappeared.

I'm trying to get a block from the guy Rob told me about but he isn't responding to my PM. I checked his profile and he was online thursday and read my message and didn't respond to it. GRRR!
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Re: kimokalihi's 91 SS EJ20 Swap

Post by Florin1 »

I'm saying, if the damage occurred while it was stock running its 440cc's in Japan. Like the #2 injector was bad like it was on my car, and Rob's friend...
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Re: kimokalihi's 91 SS EJ20 Swap

Post by kimokalihi »

Oh I see what you mean. That's a good point. Damnit, those injectors are gone. I should give Eric a heads up since he bought them.
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Re: kimokalihi's 91 SS EJ20 Swap

Post by kimokalihi »

I got half the wiring done for my Pioneer Premier 880PRS head unit and also started rerouting and rewiring my boost and AFR gauge to the steering column. I'll get pics up when it's done. I need to find a male and matching female connector to wire up to one of the gauges because they decided over at innovate that only one of those gauges needed a disconnectable harness. That's two things I don't like about these gauges. They're both white but one is a bluish white backlight and then one harness is detachable with a connector on the end and the other is just wires coming out of the back of the gauge. :roll:

Went to Home Depot today and exchanged my cheap Husky 3/8" torque wrench for another cheap Husky 1/2" torque wrench. Only cost me $6! Now I'm glad it broke. This one will do 250 ft lbs instead of 120 ft lbs. That 3/8" one was a pain in the ass anyways. Everything I used it for should have been 1/2" sockets.
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