Comments on my proposed AWIC setup

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Legacy777
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Comments on my proposed AWIC setup

Post by Legacy777 » Sun Sep 11, 2005 9:11 pm

I've been researching pumps and radiators for my AWIC setup.

I've come up with what I think I'm going to get, but wanted to get opinions. I'd like to buy the parts before my trip next tuesday, so if you have a comment, do tell.

I took measurements in front of the A/C condensor, and I have about a 12"x9" area on the driver's side, and a 10-11"x6" area on the passenger side. I could squeeze a 1" thick cooler in there, but most coolers I've found are 3/4" thick or 1-1/2" thick. I'm planning on using two radiators.

I've put together a comparison on the coolers & pumps I've looked at. The pump comparison is not as in depth.
http://www.main.experiencetherave.com/s ... arison.xls
http://www.main.experiencetherave.com/s ... arison.xls

I'm more then likely going to get the two radiators highlighted in green.
http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/Sear ... chbtn.y=12
http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/Sear ... =ZX502360N

As for pumps, I'm probably going to get the Jabsco 18510-0020 industrial pump. It has mechanical seals vs. lip seals, and has quite a bit higher flow rates.
http://www.xylemflowcontrol.com/obsolet ... -puppy.htm

Tech data on the pump
http://www.xylemflowcontrol.com/files/1 ... _03_03.pdf


Due to the higher flow rates of the pump, I will more then likely run the radiators in parallel. I am however going to do performance testing of the pump and see how much it flows without any backpressure, then check flow rates into each radiator, as well in series and in parallel, and through the intercooler. This will let me know the best configuration to put the radiators in.

Any comments are greatly appreciated.

Thanks


Note the Jabsco pump I listed above is "obsolete" I've updated the links to reflect Jabsco's change. I would recommend the following pump as a replacement to the above pump. It has about three times the flow capacity at the same pump head.

Low Pressure Cyclone Centrifugal Pump

50840 Series Low Pressure Centrifugal Pump Technical Specs
Last edited by Legacy777 on Thu May 28, 2009 2:51 am, edited 3 times in total.
Josh

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Post by professor » Sun Sep 11, 2005 10:56 pm

if you run parallel, you may want to incorporate a flow balancer, as the water will find and exploit the path of least resistance. the balancer could be as simple as an adjustable pinch clamp on one of the hoses on the"easy flow"side

do you know how noisy the pump is ? I've heard of folks buying high flow pumps then not being able to stand the noise
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Post by Legacy777 » Sun Sep 11, 2005 11:41 pm

Yeah I had thought about that.....which is one of the reasons I'd like to stay with the same type of radiator, but even then I'll probably need something similar to what you're talking about. Like a Y splitter with a small valve in there.

No I don't know how noisy the pump is. Brat4by4 has this pump, however hasn't installed it yet, so I'm not sure how loud it is. He mentioned, and I ran across other people that have used this pump for AWIC setups. So it can't be that bad if it seems to be this popular.
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Post by vrg3 » Mon Sep 12, 2005 4:20 am

What's this ".xls" thing?

How will you use flow rates to determine which arrangement is best?
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Post by scoobiedoo22 » Mon Sep 12, 2005 4:54 am

Josh,

I am starting to piece together just about the same setup as you and would like to jump into this post. I know that you were looking at the 92 overseas FSM for the electric water pump wiring. I was just wondering how you plan on running power to your pump? I just bought an OEM pump and awic and looking at the stock wiring, now the pump has two relays, a dropping resistor, and is tied into the mpfi and ignition relay. Are you planning on just running a 12v constant to the pump?
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Post by Legacy777 » Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:50 pm

vrg3 wrote:What's this ".xls" thing?

How will you use flow rates to determine which arrangement is best?
You know....excel ;) It's just a comparison of the different coolers.

My concern is that the coolers are too restrictive. If the flow rate drops very considerably from the pump's open flow compared to when it's hooked up to the cooler, that'll clue me in as to the fact they might be too restrictive. If the flow rate is similar between the parallel and series setup, I'll run them in series.
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Post by Legacy777 » Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:52 pm

scoobiedoo22 wrote:Josh,

I am starting to piece together just about the same setup as you and would like to jump into this post. I know that you were looking at the 92 overseas FSM for the electric water pump wiring. I was just wondering how you plan on running power to your pump? I just bought an OEM pump and awic and looking at the stock wiring, now the pump has two relays, a dropping resistor, and is tied into the mpfi and ignition relay. Are you planning on just running a 12v constant to the pump?
I'm not using the stock pump. I'm planning on using the Jabsco 18510-0020 pump. I found a place north of town that has it for $176.

For your case, I'd just wire the pump up directly to a 12v switched signal. Without a separate controller, you really can't use the "lower speed" setup.
Josh

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Post by vrg3 » Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:29 pm

Ehhh.... skel?

Are you planning on mounting the pump in the stock AWIC pump location? You may need to to ensure that it primes.

I looked at pumps like these but they were all too expensive for me... This one seems to run a little over $200. Or do you have a more affordable source?
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Post by Legacy777 » Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:34 am

Yeah, I'm going to put it somewhere near the stock pump location. I think if I use the windshield washer resevoir it should allow water to flow to the pump.

I bought my pump for $176 at http://www.progressivepumps.com

It's a little cheaper, but still a little bit of money.
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Post by Legacy777 » Fri Sep 16, 2005 6:08 pm

Some additional comments regarding progressive pumps.

They charged me tax, since they're also in Texas. That was 15 bucks....but they charged me like 17 bucks for shipping. The pump was 7lbs. So I ended up paying $209 for the pump. So I'm not so sure I'd recommend them. There were other places I had found that would've netted a lower price if you include shipping and tax.
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Post by Legacy777 » Sun Sep 18, 2005 3:59 am

I got a few pics of the pump if anyone's interested.

http://www.main.experiencetherave.com:8 ... /ej22t/28/
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Post by Legacy777 » Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:25 pm

I played with the pump a little bit yesterday. That's one badass pump.

With 3/4" NPT barbed fittings on the pump, I filled a 5 gallon bucket in 25 seconds! The garden hose couldn't keep up with filling the resevoir bucket I was using.

I'm going to do similar tests with running water through the intercooler and the radiators to see what device is going to limit flow and by how much.

Also, noisewise, the pump is very quiet.
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Post by georryan » Thu Oct 27, 2005 6:32 am

Josh, what is the flow rate of your pump? Do you know what the stock pump's flow rate was? I've done some looking but wasn't successful.

My pump is the Johnson CM30P7-1. It flows 22.5 l/min at 15kPa/0.15 bar head, or so it says on the pump. With .3 bar backpressure it will flow at 9 l/min. It is a magnetic driven pump, and I'm thinking it will be pretty quiet. I was curious how it compared to yours.

EDIT: I just looked at the specs of your pump. 45 l/min is a lot. That's quite the pump.
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Post by Legacy777 » Thu Oct 27, 2005 6:48 pm

yeah....it's quite a badass pump. My tests confirm the rated flow is pretty accurate.

I got the fittings to do some testing on the intercooler and radiators. I'm curious to see what the results are.
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Post by Legacy777 » Fri Oct 28, 2005 12:20 am

Did most of the testing I wanted to do this evening. The only configuration I didn't get to test was the flow rate of the radiators in parallel.

There was a pretty substantial flow drop with the 3/8" tubing, and the radiators. Here's what the numbers boiled out to be.

3/4" tubing - 11.11 gpm
5/8" tubing - 8.11 gpm
intercooler - 5 gpm
3/8" tubing - 2.31 gpm
larger radiator - 1.67 gpm
smaller radiator - 1.62 gpm

The plan is to keep the 3/4" tubing all the way up to the point where I tee off to the radiators. Also, I plan to use as little 3/8" tubing as I can. I am planning to run them in parallel to reduce system flow drop. I don't think a throttling valve will be necessary, however if I find that the flow rates are that far off, I will add one. I'll then tee them back together and run 5/8" tubing to the intercooler. From the intercooler, I'll run 5/8" to the windshield washer resevoir, which I plan to use as a resevoir for my AWIC. Then run 3/4" tubing from the resevoir to the pump.

Hopefully with that setup I should be able to maintain a 5 gpm system flow.

Other thing to note, I retested the 3/4 tubing after testing all the other scenarios to verify my battery voltage/capacity did not drop significantly. It didn't.

There's a possibility that the flows may be higher since voltage is usually higher when the car is running.

Here's a spreadsheet with a break down of times, flows, and conditions.
http://www.main.experiencetherave.com:8 ... wrates.xls

Questions/comments?
Josh

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Post by professor » Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:07 pm

pretty cool. I like the methodical approach

clearly parallel will be the way to go. one way to think of parallel is that the water will be slightly less cool at times, but probably much cooler under sustained load, as flow in series probably won't be enough to keep the IC core from heat soaking

IU wonder how well the IC core flows
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Post by Legacy777 » Fri Oct 28, 2005 6:17 pm

professor wrote:IU wonder how well the IC core flows
Are you talking about the air portion of the intercooler?

I think autospeed bench tested it against other subaru IC's. I think I have the numbers.

Bottom line was that with the intake piping, the AWIC had the least restriction.

I did however play with my shop vac and the AWIC. There was very little to any change in the motor pitch when I put the hose on the AWIC piping. So I'd venture to say it was pretty free flowing.
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Post by Legacy777 » Fri Nov 04, 2005 4:55 am

I got the tee fittings and did some more testing.

With the radiator's tee'd together, and separate 3/8" outlets, the combined flow is about 3.53 gpm.

With the radiators tee'd together, and then tee'd back together into a single 5/8" line, the flow rate was 3.33 gpm.

When I started the car, and used the same condition right above, I got about 4 gpm.

I updated the spreadsheet with the new numbers.

So it still looks like the radiators are a big flow drop. For now I'll give them a shot, and if I find that they aren't performing well enough, I'll look into other alternatives.
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Post by professor » Fri Nov 04, 2005 4:30 pm

I did some matchbook calculations to see what that means:

specific heat air : 1000 J / kg C
specific heat water : 4186 J / kg C

air flow 250 CFM = 7.6 kg/min
air delta T = 75C
air desired energy loss = 57000 J/ min.

water flow 4 gal/min = 30 lb/min = 14 kg / min
increase in water T with perfect heat transfer = 10 degrees

You have plenty of water to do the heat trasfer than you need. Of course I've neglected a bunch of stuff. Note that since the heat capacity of water is four times that of air, and your water mass flow is twice that of air, your water temp rise will be about 8 times smaller than the decrease in air temp. so you can adapt these values quickly to any CFM and air delta T you want.
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Post by Legacy777 » Sat Nov 05, 2005 2:17 am

Thanks Prof.

It's going to be interesting trying to fit the piping in there. The tees I have are a little on the large side, and I'm not exactly sure how I'm going to get the large tubing from the front of the car to where it needs to go with out it looking like complete ass.
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Post by Legacy777 » Sat Nov 05, 2005 4:43 am

Hmmm......I'm really going to have to sit and stare at how to pipe this stuff up.....
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Post by Legacy777 » Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:33 am

Got the radiators in. I was not however able to use the larger diameter hose. I tee'd 3/8" together and then put a reducer to go to 5/8" on both the upstream & downstream side of the radiators. Having just a single 3/8" line going to the radiators will probably hamper flow, but there was really no good way to install the massive 5/8" or 3/4" tees. There's just no room in the front of this car.

I will probably just leave it for now and see how things work. I did also mount the pump. I had to mount it upside down, which shouldn't matter, except for the fact I will need to put some extra straps around the pump to secure it better. I don't trust the plastic base piece alone in which I used to mount the pump.

http://www.main.experiencetherave.com:8 ... s/ej22t/33
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Post by Legacy777 » Sun Nov 06, 2005 9:52 pm

I tested the system. It only runs about 1.67 gpm......which sucks!! So it's back to the drawing board.

I'm probably going to have to use plastic tees, and then reduce down to the 3/8" tubing using a separate reducer. I also had to run a 90 deg inlet fitting on the pump due to how it's oriented. I will probably switch that to a 45 elbow which should help too.

I added some screw clamps to the pump. Not my finest work in how I got through the metal, but I don't have an air chisel, then it would have been cake. So I had to drill holes. I'll patch up the holes and silicone everything real good.

http://www.main.experiencetherave.com:8 ... s/ej22t/34
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Post by professor » Mon Nov 07, 2005 12:04 am

how about flipping the right side radiator around 180 degrees, and taking both 3/8" tubes out of the area to the driver's side, where you can hook both to the 5/8" tube. that would eliminate the single 3/8" runs, as well as the 3/8" tees which are killing you

on each run you can use 5/8 tee, 5/8 elbow (to get the two hoses pointed in the same direction), then 5/8 to 3/8 reducer on each line, after the split

lots of fittings but your flow will double at least
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Post by Legacy777 » Mon Nov 07, 2005 12:15 am

So you're talking about running 3/8" tubes from each radiator, so 4 3/8" tubes?

Again, I'm not sure I have the room, but yeah that's what I'm going to have to try and do.....
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