FMAWIC

[__TT__]

just a thought....what about a fmic with a awic hybrid?

Thoughts?

[evolutionmovement]

As in, you would put a cooling jacket around the piping inside the engine bay? Where would you fit all these heat exchangers?

[__TT__]

I was thinking air intercooler first then the water cooler behind it. heat/water exchanger at the throttle body.

[dscoobydoo]

Wouldn't that make the air entering the second charge cooler warmer thus negating the effects you were looking for?

I think someone tried doing what you were thinking of by putting water jackets in the piping lines headed to the air to air intercooler on top.

I don't think the effects would be worth it.

[kimokalihi]

Meth would be a better alternative.

[evolutionmovement]

Ford used the A/C to help cool the water for the Lightning. IMO, it's an overcomplicated solution, especially with having to adapt it to such a compromised vehicle. Meth or water injection would probably be a better solution, but I can see the appeal of having a system that wouldn't require refilling a tank. If you designed a vehicle from scratch to use this system, it might be something more worth considering. In these conventional cars, you're adding more weight ahead of the axle and compromising the efficiency of all the heat exchangers as they share the same space (if they can all fit even without an A/C condenser), but designing a vehicle for such a system that would probably locate the heat exchangers in different spots, you should take into account increased drag (what good is more horsepower if it only gets used up fighting increased drag? THat'r rhetorical—it's less than worthless because it only results in more fuel use for a little more power below highway speeds). However, if you look into some old fighter aircraft designs (particularly the North American Mustang's radiator set up) or look into some old NACA research papers, you could probably find some lower drag solutions for heat exchanger ducting. IMO, WWII fighters are a great thing to look into because they faced and solved a lot of problems we face with cars. They were the pinnacle of pistin engine aircraft—turbocharging, nitrous oxide injection, even direct injection got their start then and drag was a much bigger, more important issue.

BUT, providing you can fit all the heat exchangers and that the system would be enough of an improvement over either system alone to justify doing it (I suppose there's always the unique factor), you might be able to make up for the added heat by improving the flow of air out of the heat exchangers, which would require ducting to a low-pressure zone to aid in extraction. The front of the hood is a good spot, but I'm not sure if you'd be able to get enough area there without extending the front of the car (basically, putting all the heat exchangers about where the bumper beam is) or additionally ducting out the sides through the fenders. This is actually something I'm considering (the mounting position for the radiator—it won't be turbocharged) for a near-complete rebody of an Impreza as I explore all avenues of building my own car.

[__TT__]

well my thoughts are this. Imho adding the actual itercooler to the tottle body to an already exssting fmic weight wise will be fairly small. My thoughts are that it will keep the air coming not the awic cooler thus killing any heat soak. Really my only concern it the water heat exchanger weight, and location.
would using the auto tranny oil cooler for a awic setup be a bad thing?

[evolutionmovement]

Well, you'd also have the weight of the reserve tank, piping, pump, water @ 8.35 lbs./gal., and the heat exchanger. Of course, since you'll already be cooling the charge prior to it entering the AWIC, you could probably ditch the reserve tank (though the AWIC itself will also be in a hot area of the engine bay, but I have no idea how much that is). As for the transmission cooler, I would think it would be a little small, but that's a complete guess. Without some numbers on air flow, AWIC system efficiencies with the flow rate, water volume, and heat exchanger size you'd use, plus those of the AtA system and heat under the hood for soak . . . Too much damn math and variables for me. I'd just pick either AWIC or AtA, duct the exhaust hot air out the hood and, if still really required, add a NACA duct or two to the hood to blow more air onto the charge piping itself. Cheaper, too.

But if you're determined to do it to be different, I won't argue. I'd love to build a vehicle with a front-mounted radial engine under a NACA cowl (the car would look like a P-47 fuselage with the wings and tail cut off and the wheels sticking out formula car style) mated to a manually-overridable CVT and there's sure as hell nothing cheap, efficient, or practical about that (at least not drivetrain wise).

[gijonas]

i have a very good plan im currently designing as we speak of a laminova intercooler integrated into the manifold,this project will be under way within the next couple months.If you want ultimate intercooling efficiency you should look into it,laminova that is.

[evolutionmovement]

I wonder how they actually achieve laminar flow, especially in regards to the varied applications, but allowing that it works, I would guess that would improve throttle response as well as intercooler efficiency.

Edit: now that I look at a different page, it seems they do figure it for different applications. I'm curious and would like to see a direct comparison with a standard type of intercooler.

[gijonas]

.

I'm curious and would like to see a direct comparison with a standard type of intercooler

I cant remember where i found all the best info i have seen as it is rather elusive, but there was that very comparison and the difference is beyond mild.I read enough on it, for long enough that i feel confident that i can make a cooler far better than anything i can pay money for.High efficiency,compact design,short intake track,and low pressure drop.Besides the expense of a proprietary engineering project how do you go wrong?

[evolutionmovement]

Tell me about it! Sometimes I wish I could just take the designs and engineering of others as ideal. Hell, I'd like to just take it as acceptable in a lot of cases. Needing to figure out and/or build everything yourself is expensive and time consuming. Christ, I almost made my own coffee maker, but the figures for an injection molds were thankfully beyond even my tolerance of cost to bring something of my own to life. Of course, if I could find FDA approved HDPE sheets and weld rod in interesting colors I could still make it myself. Dammit, I hardly even drink coffee!

[gijonas]

I almost made my own coffee maker, but the figures for an injection molds were thankfully beyond even my tolerance of cost to bring something of my own to life. Of course, if I could find FDA approved HDPE sheets and weld rod in interesting colors I could still make it myself. Dammit, I hardly even drink coffee!

I thought I had issues...Im still sure I do but damn.

WTF is this thread about?

[evolutionmovement]

The spider plant inspired coffee maker was a design project at school I built a model of. I wanted to make a functional version.

But, yeah, maybe that laminova idea combined with the AtA would allow an easier placement than off the throttle body. Maybe the two could run both in line or even have the AWIC first in line. I'm not sure if it makes a difference in order.

[beatersubi]

Sierra cosworth guys have found much success w/ air/air intercooling feeding a air/water cooled intake manifold and have made much power, even with the stock T3 turbo.

[Legacy777]

I didn't read all the posts.....but the simple answer is an air-to-water setup is more or less like a front mount, you're just using water as a cooling medium to transfer temperatures from one exchanger to another.

[AWD_addict]

...would using the auto tranny oil cooler for a awic setup be a bad thing?

The stock one in the radiator? Yes it would.