Notes on the Ej22T!! - More info added!!

Heads, valves, pistons, rods, crankshaft, etc...

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Notes on the Ej22T!! - More info added!!

Post by boostjunkie »

There has been some discussion in the nasioc forums about the ej22t shortblock. A member with the block and DOHC ej25 heads replied stating he's running 30psi reliably on the stock internals (is this you, milehi?). Anyways, here's what he had to say about the block:

"Hello everyone. I'm posting here now to clarify a few things about the Turbo Legacy shortblock formula, and my car. For starters, I have hesitated to post here for a long time for two reasons. First, previous attempts at pursuing dialog on this subject regarding my experiences and theories with this topic in the past have often been met with disbelief and crtiticsm. Second, after realizing the vast successess with the Turbo Legacy engine formula, and also recognizing the dramatic simplicity of its implementation, I was very fearful of people duplicating my successess and therefore eliminating my elite position of having a very potent turbo car. But alas, the secret is out, and it seems time to shed some light on this mysterious topic.

As a side note, I must include that people in Europe and Australia discovered the T.Legacy recipe long before I did. At this point, much of the foreign enthusiasts have progressed to exploring the further capabilities of a built T.Legacy block. One notable individual who sticks out is a person who goes by the name "PLAYER". He seems to be a common poster on the MRT forums, and the Scoobynet forums. He occasionaly chimes in on this board, only to ridicule us on our apparent inability to recognize the true value of the T.Legacy block.

So, here is a list of pertinent observations:

1. My name is Mark Ramirez, not Alan. PDM turbos has pictures of my engine bay on their website, although the text description of what is actually in my car is very inaccurate. 90% of the work on my car has been done by me in my own shop. PDM has been a great help in a lot of the work (i.e. welding and tube bending), but as far as the engine goes, they simply provided technical advice for assembly.

2. Yes, I previously tried a built 2.5 engine from B-Spec. It didn't work. All in all, I went through 6 blown 2.5 motors before I gave up on that pursuit. Details of these endeavors have been discussed on this board in the past, and the problems ran the gamut from pistons, bearings, to gasket issues. Ultimately, it is my conclusion that the common failure between all the blocks invloves the weakness of the block itself, due to it's open deck nature. Basically, in high boost situations, open deck 2.5 blocks are too weak.

3. Yes I run a stock 2.2 T.Legacy on ALOT of boost. I have so far accumualted over 30,000 miles on a T.Legacy block, running over 20 psi of boost the whole time . The only engine failure involved a separate T.Legacy engine experiment I was pursuing for a short time, but I'll get to that later. Currently I drive every day to work on 23-24 psi, and have been doing so for at least the past 2 years. Yes, I have tried 30 psi, but for very short bursts. The highest sustained boost levels I have run is 26-27 psi. The only reason I don't do this now, is because of the efficiency range of my turbo, and operating at that level is bad for the turbo, and short on ultimate gains until I change turbos. Furthermore, realise that there is a 2-3 psi difference in atmospheric pressure between here (Colorado mountains) and sea level. So therefore my 27-28 psi could actually be equivalent to 24-25 psi at sea level.

4. The T.Legacy engine failure experiment I refer to invloved my attempt to find out what the limits of the engine were. It started with a T.Leg engine with 150,000 miles from the junkyard. First, I ran it for weeks at 27-30 psi. Second, I over-revved it to 11,000 rpm twice, by shifting from 2nd gear redlined, to first (by the way, this shift can only be done with a dogbox). After having no failures, I finally took it to Second Creek Raceway. This track is a 1.7 mile circuit track, with hills, chicanes, all kinds of turns, and so forth. I drove the piss out of it for 20 laps straight (over twenty minutes straight), shifting at 9000 rpm, heating the hell out of it, and pummeling it with tons of boost. Eventually, I spun the number 2 rod bearing. After tearing down the engine, inspection of the engine revealed that other than the bearing, the rest of the engine was in perfect shape. Furthermore, the failed rod bearing was more than likely caused by damage sustained from the 11000 rpm incidents.

5. My compression ratio is very low, which explains the durability of my setup. Using DOHC heads, the T.Legacy headgasket and block, my compression ratio is a little over 7.5:1. Yes my bottom end suffers, but with my setup, my top end definitely makes up for it. Furthermore, please realize the Rigoli's also use 7.5:1 compression on their cars in Australia. The 2000 2.2L headgasket is a thinner, phase 2 type headgasket, and would give me a compression ratio of 8:1, and experimenting with this approach is something which I am considering.

6. Previous discussions regarding Byron's experiences at B-Spec in the past (years ago), revealed high boost with a stock block at sea level will eventually bend a rod. From what I can gather, running 27+ psi at sea level will most ultimately bend a rod. On his built 2.2, he uses stock head studs, and the only problem he was having was blowing random headgaskets when over 30 psi. He did this intentionally, so that his weakpoint was at the headgasket, and not something else more expensive. Realize he is running a 8.5:1 comp ratio.

7. The T.Leg short block is made of a different aluminum than all the other open deck blocks. It is a sandcasted "medium pressure diecast aluminum crankcase...utilized to secure the higher rigidity necessary with a closed deck." (SAE technical document #890471). The open deck block "is made of high pressure die cast aluminum". High pressure casting unfortunately forces tiny little bubbles into the aluminum as it cools down, but as whole is cheaper to process by Subaru. In short, THE T.LEGACY BLOCK IS DENSER, MORE RIGID AND STRONGER THAN OPEN DECK BLOCKS. IT IS ALSO SIGNIFICANTLY MORE EXPENSIVE TO PRODUCE BY SUBARU. On the downside, because of its higher density, it retains more heat and requires more attention to cooling.

8. The T.Legacy blocks REQUIRES THE T.LEGACY OIL PUMP. THIS OIL PUMP IS DIFFERENT THAN OTHER PUMPS. IT IS A MUCH HIGHER PRESSURE, HIGHER FLOW PUMP, AND IS NECESSARY FOR THE ADDED OIL DEMAND OF THE PISTON OIL SQUIRTERS AND TURBO. DO NOT QUESTION THIS STATEMENT, BECAUSE YOU'LL BE WASTING YOUR TIME.

9. I don't know if the Turbo legacy water pump/thermostat is different, but I use it anyway.

10. My turbo is a one of a kind custom ball bearing turbo built by Turbo Engineering Corp in Golden, CO . The easiest way to describe it is that it has the T04S .74 A/R compressor of the Garret GT35R, with the .86 A/R turbine of the Garret GT28/35R. Both wheels are the more efficient ballistic concepts series axial vane wheels. It starts boosting at 2700 rpm, reaches 25 psi at 36-3700 rpm, and holds it to 8000 rpm.

11. I rev my engine to 7500-8000 rpm every day.

12. The rods are a forged steel design. Yes they are very good. No, they aren't different than other rods.

13. Pistons are different from normal. They are a "thermalflow type used to stand the high heat load at full throttle." Basically they are better than cast pistons, but not quite as good as a truly forged piston. Also, they are moly-coated pistons. THEY ARE VERY GOOD PISTONS FOR THE MONEY.

14. Yes, my car is ridiculously fast. It will break all 4 tires loose (225/50-16) in two gears. I will not tell you what the 1/4 mile time is, so don't ask. If you want to witness it, you are welcome to a joyride. I personally challenge anyone to race (in good spirits of course) at Second Creek Raceway, with the exception of Cobb's Cone Basher. That car has some ridiculously serious traction advantages.

15. Yes, the T.legacy is the same short block as the infamous 22B impreza. Please don't argue with me on this. I am right. I am positive. End of story.

16. The T. Legacy engine formula by itself will not create a monster by itself. PROPER TUNING, WELL BALANCED COMPONENTS, AND PROPER DESIGN ARE ALSO REQUIRED. THERE ARE OTHER THINGS NOT METIONED HERE REQUIRED IN THE FORMULA. Unfortunately, I am too tired to list all of them, and need to reserve some of the secrets to myself. I cannot emphasize the importance of proper tuning. I have seen "bulletproof" $10000 engines self destruct from bad tuning. Please realize my car NEVER DETONATES, NEVER HAS HIGH EGTS, NEVER EXPERIENCES EXCESSIVE BACKPRESSURE, RUNS A 11-12:1 AFR, ETC. These are the reasons the Turbo Legacy Formula works for me."

CONTINUED HERE

"HOK - It's nice to come back to this board and run into a familiar name from back in the day. Its strange to see a person with a lower member number than mine!! I see you remember the old post where my question ended up turning into a witch trial. I forgot to tell you thanks for the support back then. You were one of the few people who saw the logic in what I was doing.

Anyways, you are correct in assuming the heads aren't stock. They EXTREMELY ported and polished, aftermarket valves, three angle valve job, dual valve springs, and titanium retainers. At one point I had bigger cams. They were from the same place that does Cobb's cams. Those cams aren't in the heads now because they disintegrated. Yes, you heard that right. The welds on the lobes started eroding off after several months, and one of the lobes actually chipped and popped a shim out and caused catastrophic damage to the head. It took a long time to fix that mess. I concluded the welded cams might not have been hard enough to withstand my super stiff valve springs.

While I was repairing those heads, I tried a set of stock heads with stock cams, and was pleasantly surprised. THE STOCK HEADS WORK VERY WELL. Don't get me wrong, there are noticable differences, but not how you would think. With the stock heads, there is a significantly crisper and responsive low and mid range. With the ported heads there is a MUCH better top end (after 5000 rpm), but the mid range suffers, and the low end response really suffers.

With the ported heads and stock cams, I hardly noticed a difference without the bigger cams. After you get to a certain HP level, it becomes difficult to distinguish an extra 10-15 HP. It did seem however that the stock cams gave me a more tolerable low end with the ported heads.

Currently, I'm using the ported heads(mostly because I already have them) with the stock cams. If I had to do it over again, I would have left the heads alone, with the exception of upgrading to stiffer valve springs (valve float occurs around 6500-7000 with high boost).

As far as engine management, I'm using the LINK Plus. It works really well for me, although it seems some people can't get it to work for them.

Graham -
1.I'm using the stock cam. The rev range has more to do with the turbo size than cams. Cam selection appears more critical with NA engines. On an older smaller turbo, I noticed my revs maxed out around 6500-7000. I went to the bigger cams and ported heads to fix that problem, and ended up with minimal gains. However, with the bigger turbo, my rev range jumped right up to 8000.

2. I'm using a Link Plus.

3. The rods are the same quality as all the other Phase I rods of that older era. The only better genuine Subaru rods can be found in some of the newer Phase 2 Sti engines. They have a thicker cross-sectional area, and may also use different forgings of steel. They are not nearly as strong as a Pauter rod (which is forged chromoly instead of forged steel), but as you can see sometimes a rod of that strength isn't entirely necessary. The only rod upgrade I would even consider would be to titanium rods, which could facilitate a much higher safe rpm range because of the significant lighter weight (possibly 10000?). Unfortunately, I'm still trying to find an outfit willing to do small quantities of titanium rods at a reasonable price.

4. I'm using the Turbo Legacy head gasket. The only other option is the 2000 2.2 L phase 2 headgasket, which is thinner, and would up the compression ratio.

5. I'm using a brand new block.

6. The internals of all the T.Leg blocks are the same, year to year."

FOUND HERE: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthr ... genumber=2

Boostjunkie - Proud to have a stout 22b block!!
Last edited by boostjunkie on Tue May 06, 2003 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
[url=http://www.angelfire.com/md3/91turbolegacy/images/On_the_Lawn.jpg]1991 Legacy Turbo (RIP)[/url]

[url=http://www.angelfire.com/md3/91turbolegacy/images/Summer_Car_Wash3.jpg]2000 Celica GT-S[/url]
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Post by Aaron's ej22t »

Yeah, that guy rocks!
He is actually running 23psi daily but had taken it up to 30psi (not sustained though as mentioned above).
so, down here close to sea level it is about 20psi. oh, and his motor is not completely stock but close to it. new heads, rods, pistons.
like he said, tuning is the key to reliability.
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Post by kelley »

I have been saying that the ej22t block shares the same block as the ej22t for quite some time and most people disagree that it is the the
closed deck ej20 bored out. not true. this engine is a very strong engine and superior to all ej20's in many ways.
I would challenge this guy wiht my new engine. even cobb's cone basher. with it's redicluously large 285/18 tires.
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Post by boostjunkie »

Challenge him!! Just make sure you tell us where and when!!
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Post by kelley »

how about if it is covered in a certain magazine. with cobb's car.
I have seen player on nasioc. he has an imreza l think
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Post by paf »

ej 26???
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Post by eastbaysubaru »

At the Rim of the World Rally this past weekend I talked to a certain person who is in the process of boring out a ej22t to 2.4 and 2.6L. I'm not sure what the result will be, but he chose the ej22t block for a reason.

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Post by STi_GUY »

While on the subject of more displacement... What is the most cost effective way to get it on a 2.2L? Bore? Stroke? I want at least 2.4L.
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Post by kelley »

a 2.5l crank.
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Post by RacerX »

Man I DO NOT want to sell my engine :shock: :!:
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Post by STi_GUY »

Awesome kelley. Is that a direct replacement? just a simple as that? wow! where can I get a hold of one and for how much?
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Post by Aaron's ej22t »

no, it is not just as simple as that. you need to make sure you get a phase 1 2.5 crank. then, get phase 1 2.5 rods and have custom pistons made. cause, you might be able to use the factory ej22 pistons, but i am not sure. i think you would need new ones. just putting in crank and rods and keeping the same ej22 bore is only going to give you like a 2.3l. if you get overbore pistons custom made, then you could have a 2.4l or even a 2.5l.
oh, and you want the phase 1 crank, because of the crank end journals, they are the same as the ej22 crank. a phase 2 impreza 2.5 crank will not work. :wink:
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Post by kelley »

thanks aaron, man your smart. :D the exact displacement is 2346. if I remembered correctly. also if I remembered correctly the stock pistons will work.
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Post by Aaron's ej22t »

yup, that is right. 2346cc is a 2.35l. I will double check on the pistons. 8)
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Post by STi_GUY »

Thanks guys!
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Post by Brat4by4 »

What does increasing the displacement like that do to the compression? Like say if you had pistons made that gave you 2.5L, wouldn't the compression drop? I guess I don't understand the relationship between changing the displacement and compression. And I assume the custom pistons are for a larger bore...
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Post by boostjunkie »

If you're only replacing the crank and rods, the CR shouldn't change. CR is based on the ratio between the volume (I believe) in the cylinder at top dead center vs. bottom dead center. By changing the stroke, you'll effectively increase the volume at both TDC and BDC (thereby increasing displacement), but the ratios will stay the same. The same holds true when you overbore. That is assuming that everything else (cylinder head quench volume, piston height/dished vs. domed piston, and headgasket thickness) remains the same.
[url=http://www.angelfire.com/md3/91turbolegacy/images/On_the_Lawn.jpg]1991 Legacy Turbo (RIP)[/url]

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Post by morgie »

for compression concern, have a look at this :
http://wac.addr.com/auto/obs/turbo/ejcalcs.html

there's a nice table of head/block mix and resulting compression ratio's at the bottom of the page
Block : MY91 EJ22T
Heads : MY98 EJ25 (DOHC)
Comp. Ratio : 8.0:1
Notes : Thin SOHC head gasket

Block : MY91 EJ22T
Heads : MY00/01 EJ25 (SOHC)
Comp. Ratio : 7.7:1
Notes : EJ22T/SOHC hybrid

Block : MY91 EJ22T
Heads : MY97 EJ22
Comp. Ratio : 8.5:1
Notes : Thin SOHC head gasket
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Post by -K- »

By phase 1 you mean the pre DOHC? What year range? I don't keep up on the n/a engines too much. And I have heard there are some clearance issues with a 2.5 crank. Or is that only with a 2.0 block? What I want to know is how much I could get out of my SOHC heads. They don't look too bad at all, has anyone done some work to them?
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Post by entirelyturbo »

Hehe, I was bragging about this thread to a friend the other night, he was shocked (and jealous :D )

The EJ25 Phase I is the DOHC, and the Phase II is the SOHC. I think the Phase II's came out in 99 or 00.

From what I hear, putting EJ25 heads on an EJ22 will really up your compression, to the point that even an otherwise stock setup would require premium fuel. And they flow better overall. As was posted earlier, the Phase I crank will work but the Phase II won't.
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Post by Aaron's ej22t »

no, the compression ratio will drop.
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Post by Legacy777 »

actually....if you put EJ22 heads on an EJ25 block, compression ratio will increase dramatically to the point of needing premium fuel.
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Post by boostjunkie »

But subyluvr2212 was talking about putting the DOHC heads on the EJ22T block (or EJ22 block) and stating the compression ratio would increase. This is not the case.

Legacy777, you are correct, however, that putting the EJ22 heads on a 2.5L block will increase the compression ratio.
[url=http://www.angelfire.com/md3/91turbolegacy/images/On_the_Lawn.jpg]1991 Legacy Turbo (RIP)[/url]

[url=http://www.angelfire.com/md3/91turbolegacy/images/Summer_Car_Wash3.jpg]2000 Celica GT-S[/url]
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Post by entirelyturbo »

Whoopsie-daisy, got mixed up there. Sorry guys...
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Post by FrmRgz2Rchz »

Hypothetically, I could have a 2.35L DOHC Turbo Legacy by using a Phase I 2.5L crank, rods, cams, and heads?

Sounds like these items would be hard to find and expensive.
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