Propane Injection?

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Impregacy
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Propane Injection?

Post by Impregacy »

I'm thinking propane injection in conjunction with a FCD and a MBC as my next step towards performance. So i'm trying to gather as much information as possible about propane injection. Does anybody have some good info or sources. It seems to be popular among the Regal T-type/Grand National turbo crowd, but apart from those forums i haven't been able to find anything in terms of building a custom system with calculations and such.
Psychoreo
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Post by Psychoreo »

better idea on a diesel...
stupid electrical work...
irishsetter
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Post by irishsetter »

Yeah, I have only heard of people using propane on deisels. it is like nos to a gas engine. Maybe a propane shot over the IC. That might be cool.
dzx
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Post by dzx »

Propane is pretty flamable, i dunno about spraying it anywhere you aren't hoping for a flame.
///M
'93 Legacy SS - part out
206er
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Post by 206er »

if the grand national crowd uses it, you can bet that it will work for gas engines. those guys are making some serious power.
I assume that propane injection is mostly for the cooling effect? propane has a very high octane rating but doesnt have as much energy as gasoline. in engines built to run on propane they often have 12:1 CR to take advantage of the octane.
youre probably better off asking about propane over there on the GN forums, dont think it has really taken off with subarus yet.
maybe try a water injection system instead?
1994 Touring Wagon: ruby mica, 5mt swapped
greg donovan
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Post by greg donovan »

yep stick w/water for your subaru.
96 Impreza L sedan
97 legacy outback limited
00 Impreza RS sedan
All_talk
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Post by All_talk »

There are a couple of guys over on the USMB that have LP injection on their Subies. Might look around there.

Gary
No matter how broke I am... I always seem to find two cents.
Impregacy
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Post by Impregacy »

ok thanks guys
drewdogg
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Post by drewdogg »

I know they use propane on indoor-running engines like concrete trowels and forklifts, etc I've done it. I've taken a gas engine, taken off the gas tank and added propane system to it. It doesnt have a significant performance difference from gas, but the exhaust is carbon dioxide instead of carbon monoxide from gas; that's why it's used indoors.

LP has a higher combustion rating which would allow for better perfomance with high CR engines, which is probably why it is used.
95 Impreza L/X/RS
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Tasbrat
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Post by Tasbrat »

G'day guys,
I run Propane or LPG in an EJ 22 Brumby (Brat)
I have a distributor driving it and get huge milage out of it!
Let me know if you want details.
Matt
1986 Wonder Brumby,
BLOWN & GAS FED EJ22,
AWD dual range 5sp,
Locked rear
HUGE Wheels
Alloy Bull Bar, monster skid plate
skid542
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Post by skid542 »

I think I speak for the BBS community here - yes we would like some more details please :).
Lee

93' SS, 5mt swapped, 182k, not stock...
96' N/A OBW 5sp, 212k, Couple mods... RIP
99' N/A OBW, 4eat, mostly stock.
Tasbrat
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Post by Tasbrat »

G'day Lee,
Well firstly it is a EJ22 from a 1993 Liberty/Legacy wagon.
adapted down to fit the legendary RX turbo centre locking, dual range gearbox.

In the starboard side head there is a Subaru Fiori (Sherpa?) distributor installed in the blank plug and onto the cam.
This mod was done for me in Adelaide South Australia by Rising Sun Car Services. Absolute Gurus!

I have no fuel system running at all, injectors are there but disconnected. No computor, just a disty and a mixing ring for the LPG.

LPG is a mix of butane and Propane, I am not sure the mix rates but it is sold in Australia as LPG and it is $.60 per litre as opposed to gasoline which is $1.38 per litre.

I have great power as you would expect in a light car and bags of torque.
For 100 litres of LPG I get 800 kms of running.

I apologise about the metric, maybe someone would care to convert.

I am trying to find info on the EJ 18 head swap, this fuel LOVES HIGH COMPRESSION MOTORS.

It has got to be worth a try.
Ahem, I also have a superdupercharger from a toyota MR2 which might just find its way on as well.

You never ever know 'til you have a go!

Any feedback or relevant background info would help me greatly.
Cheers,
Matt
1986 Wonder Brumby,
BLOWN & GAS FED EJ22,
AWD dual range 5sp,
Locked rear
HUGE Wheels
Alloy Bull Bar, monster skid plate
skid542
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Post by skid542 »

Wow Matt, that's quite a custom setup you have. Thanks for sharing with us too.

Did you have any issues with any of the sensors when you swapped? I can't really think of why you would, does your O2 comply?

You say it's torque hog, do you happen to have any dyno numbers or can make a comparison to the gas version?

It's a shame that LPG hasn't really caught on over here in the states like it has elsewhere in the world. I think it holds a lot of potential once the technology decides to really divert some attention to it.

And I forgot my manners earlier, welcome to the BBS :).
Lee

93' SS, 5mt swapped, 182k, not stock...
96' N/A OBW 5sp, 212k, Couple mods... RIP
99' N/A OBW, 4eat, mostly stock.
wiscon_mark
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Post by wiscon_mark »

wow....this may be my new "dream direction" :-)

Welcome to the BBS :-D
[url=http://www.sl-i.net/FORUM/viewtopic.php?t=486]1995 Legacy Outback 5MT[/url]
185,000 miles
www.sl-i.net (for all Legacys!)
Tasbrat
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Post by Tasbrat »

Thanks for the welcome guys, there seems to be a wealth of info here- I need to have a good read and take some in.

I have been guided by some good souls on both the ausubaru board and the USMB to a lesser extent.

Subarus are VERY popular in Australia and they sell more here in Tasmania (per head of population) than anywhere else in the world.

LPG is now available here, factory fitted, new with gm and ford cars- they need it as they are fuel pigs anyway.

Lee, none of the sensors are connected, I had the disty re-curved and it runs about 16 degrees advanced.

O2 sensor is gone too, Custom header are 4 into 1
1 3/4 " into 2 1/2 ".

It would pass emissions easily in California!
Or Sweden
Or Japan.

The torque rating is pure seat of the pants, A pretty toquey motor is now pushing a car 2/3 of its original designed weight.
I would not be able to compare with a gasoline version.

Gasoline/LPG combination systems always have a power drop when switching to the LPG. It is because of the fuel/gas butterfly in the intake.
Dedicated LPG systems like mine, don't run this and as such don't have the power drop.
It bloody rocks.

With the 10 speed box (shift on the fly low range :shock:) I am always in the power band I want.

It easily breaks traction in the wet at 1/2 throttle with all 4 wheels.
I will not try it on dry road- I love my car too much.
And it's 19 years old this year.
Matt
1986 Wonder Brumby,
BLOWN & GAS FED EJ22,
AWD dual range 5sp,
Locked rear
HUGE Wheels
Alloy Bull Bar, monster skid plate
Tasbrat
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Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 1:48 am
Location: Tasmania

Post by Tasbrat »

Image

This is her--The Wonder Brumby in her glory.


Image

Her engine room.....

Image

Her headers

Image

Distributor from in there

Image
Disty from above in starboard head.
1986 Wonder Brumby,
BLOWN & GAS FED EJ22,
AWD dual range 5sp,
Locked rear
HUGE Wheels
Alloy Bull Bar, monster skid plate
NICO
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Post by NICO »

I like it! a mean ass subaru for the swamps or up in canada the crazy snow.
wiscon_mark
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Post by wiscon_mark »

wow...

That's all I can say.

That's the coolest thing I've seen on a subaru in a long time :-)
[url=http://www.sl-i.net/FORUM/viewtopic.php?t=486]1995 Legacy Outback 5MT[/url]
185,000 miles
www.sl-i.net (for all Legacys!)
evolutionmovement
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Post by evolutionmovement »

Cool! Love those things. I want a '83/4 GL (Leone) hardtop to put an EJ22 in.

Steve
Midnight in a Perfect World on Amazon or order anywhere. The first book in a quartet chronicling the rise of a man from angry criminal to philanthropist. Midnight... is a distopic noirish novel featuring 'Duchess', a modified 1990 Subaru Legacy wagon.
Impregacy
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Post by Impregacy »

Thanks for posting Tasbrat -I love your car!! Indeed LPG here in the states if the timing is right can be got at about $.40/liter i think that's roughly what you pay. So i'm not sure why it hasn't caught on. A few questions for you: Why was that custom distributor necessary? Was this because you wanted to be able to advance the timing a whole lot and get rid of the ECU? Also i was wondering if you could describe how the LPG is injected and metered. Like is it still in liquid form when released into the intake? and how does it adjust to different throttle positions?
Tasbrat
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Post by Tasbrat »

Impregacy,
(great handle by the way..I was thinking of LiBRATy for a while)

The custom distributor was part of a grand 'keep it simple stupid' plan of mine.
Without gasoline I had no need for the computor and it seemed stupid to have a $400 part which is prone to failure and trouble, when I could have a nice simple disty.
Two wire and 5 plug leads and a set of points.
Even a 1st year apprentice could repair it.

I am looking for an electronic disty in Japan at the moment
(or a good mate is on my behalf).

The other concideration was and is the MR2 supercharger which is sitting right here teasing me...fit me.......fit me!
The distributor gives me easy control over that later.

The LPG is evaporated into a gas in the 5" donut shaped brass unit by the heat from coolant lines that are Teed into the heater hoses.

I am not positive on how it senses throttle position, I think it uses a venturi system of some kind. Good question.
It is injected right into the 50mm throttle body at the inlet manifold.

Thanks for all your kind words gentleman.
Cheers,
Matt
1986 Wonder Brumby,
BLOWN & GAS FED EJ22,
AWD dual range 5sp,
Locked rear
HUGE Wheels
Alloy Bull Bar, monster skid plate
evolutionmovement
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Post by evolutionmovement »

That's funny. The old tech I hate the most is distributors. Can't stand working on them and I just hate the way they work as an inelegant solution. Of course, internal combustion itself is an inelegant solution. I've had problems with the distributors on both my GLs, but never with electric ignition on a Subaru and I find it easy as anything to fix on the few other cars that I've worked on with issues. Whatever works for you, just had to throw in a defense of distributorless ignition.

As far as old tech goes, I do like carbs. Wouldn't trade EFI, but there's something to be said about a nice motor with some well-tuned carbs.

So you're saying the fuel system on this works something like a hybrid carb/fuel injector? What's throttle response like?

Steve
Midnight in a Perfect World on Amazon or order anywhere. The first book in a quartet chronicling the rise of a man from angry criminal to philanthropist. Midnight... is a distopic noirish novel featuring 'Duchess', a modified 1990 Subaru Legacy wagon.
Tasbrat
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Post by Tasbrat »

Throttle response is instant!
1986 Wonder Brumby,
BLOWN & GAS FED EJ22,
AWD dual range 5sp,
Locked rear
HUGE Wheels
Alloy Bull Bar, monster skid plate
ericem
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Post by ericem »

Hey!!!! your back! i missed this thread, but do you still have pics of your car? This sounds interesting :D
1993 Subaru Legacy L AWD Wagon R.I.P
1994 Subaru Legacy SS R.I.P :(
2004 Nissan Titan LE 4X4
2007 Subaru Legacy GT :)
Tasbrat
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Post by Tasbrat »

Eric I have been a BAD BOY.

Slap me, spank me pleeeease.

I have been busy, the Wonder Brumby is now Supercharged.

1ggze toyota (sorry Mr Fuji) making 6.5psi whenever I sink the right boot.

Standard EJ22, with distributor and timing control, LPG or Propane fuelled,
Water injection cuts in @ 5psi,
Boost cut out on clutch of blower

27,000kms since boost.
140kw and sooo much torque I have twisted the body shell and broken her in a few places!

Raced her on the weekend for the 2nd time, thrashed soundly for about an hour and then drove her home!

Its insane.
1986 Wonder Brumby,
BLOWN & GAS FED EJ22,
AWD dual range 5sp,
Locked rear
HUGE Wheels
Alloy Bull Bar, monster skid plate
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