aftermarket aluminum radiators...

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rockethound
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aftermarket aluminum radiators...

Post by rockethound »

I didn't see this anywhere else, so I'll get on with the details. I cracked a radiator tank last week in Redmond at the Subiclub meet. I JB puttied it and it got me back to Mount Vernon. I ordered up a new Koyo aluminum radiator for the legacy SS since the old one was toast. Here's the bad part... :cry: I noticed right off when the Koyo arrived that it was more than double the thickness of the stocker, that little voice in the back of my head started mumbling about that but I didn't quite catch the point of it, I was thinking that the extra cooling capacity might cause a cel due to the extra cooling but I figured that this thing should never overheat again with this radiator... heh, now the fun part: Most if not almost all auto cooling systems appear to have the thermostat on the coolant outlet, BEFORE the radiator so it senses the temp in the engine, it appears that Subaru places the thermostat on the return line to the waterpump AFTER the radiator. I'm sure everyone knows where I'm going with this. The thermostat in a Subaru is rated at 172 deg F. but the water exiting my shiny brand new Koyo aluminum radiator was probably 165 deg F... as a result, the thermostat never reached it's operating temp and failed to open. to finish, I had to have the car towed home, it started once it cooled down seems to run fine except for the cel's I was getting one for ect sensor, iac and knock sensor. well, the engine got so hot that it melted the plastic jacket of my knock sensor. "like candle wax" so I think the ect got baked too. I replaced the k/s and the car seems to run ok but I can't be sure that nothing else got soft damaged so, I guess it's time to start collecting engine parts just in case :oops: I guess the main point of this is maybe there should be a sticky somewhere about thermostats and aftermarket radiators. By the way, I installed a 160 deg F Coolsafe thermostat from Crucial Racing so if it overheats again, the thermostat will fail in the open position instead of closed.

Jeff
'92 Legacy SS ej20g mugged, desnorked, TD04, , MBC, CAI,v2 i/c, JDM STi v2 close ratio 5sp w/4.11's, short shifted.
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Post by AWD_addict »

That's a crappy learning experience. Thanks for telling the rest of us.

Is your car white? I was the other old Legacy at that meet.
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Post by douglas vincent »

Did you burp it first?

IMO the radiator had nothing to do with the failure. The thermostat gets its heat from the block, not the water coming through the radiator. Think about it, stock or not stock radiator, the water coming out of the radiator is ALWAYS cool. The coolent coming OUT OF THE RADIATOR is not what causes the thermostat to open. Its the hot water on top of the thermostat INSIDE THE BLOCK that causes the thermostat to open.

I suspect you either had a bad thermostat, or didnt burp the system, or correctly fill it.
Reddevil, Awaiting new heart, will it ever happen?
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Post by evolutionmovement »

Yeah, I agree with Doug - the radiator didn't have anything to do with it unless it was defective. You should have had an eye on the temp gauge before it got that hot. The only bad design in this cooling system (which is usually very bulletproof and far better than most) is a consequence of the engine type - the pocket above the water pump can collect air in the system and prevent the pump from circulating. Burping the system is absolutely critical and I usually have to do it several times after changing radiators in and out and driving it on short trips. Bad head gasket can cause this as well. I'd replace those HGs and change the oil due to the heat that engine experienced. Make sure you check everything for warpage.
Midnight in a Perfect World on Amazon or order anywhere. The first book in a quartet chronicling the rise of a man from angry criminal to philanthropist. Midnight... is a distopic noirish novel featuring 'Duchess', a modified 1990 Subaru Legacy wagon.
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Alum, radiator

Post by rockethound »

douglas vincent wrote:Did you burp it first?

IMO the radiator had nothing to do with the failure. The thermostat gets its heat from the block, not the water coming through the radiator. Think about it, stock or not stock radiator, the water coming out of the radiator is ALWAYS cool. The coolent coming OUT OF THE RADIATOR is not what causes the thermostat to open. Its the hot water on top of the thermostat INSIDE THE BLOCK that causes the thermostat to open.

I suspect you either had a bad thermostat, or didnt burp the system, or correctly fill it.
Doug,
I burped it for 15 min with the cap off, the heater controls on hot and the burping vent on the radiator opened. It should have been well burped. I also checked the thermostat using a double boiler on the stove, checked it 3 times letting it cool each time. it opened consistantly between 171 and 172 deg. my temp gauge was bad so that part was my bad, driving without a good gauge. :roll: I looked for the info and finally found it in Unabomber's Manifesto on NASIOC under cooling, there's a link titled low temp thermostats so it appears that it's happened before. The Crucial Racing Systems 160 deg Coolsafe thermostat was the decided fix. Crucial gives a pretty good explanation for the problem. The thermostat is attached directly to the waterpump so, it has no direct contact with the heated coolant in the engine. The only coolant that it has direct contact with is the already processed (cooled) water coming from the radiator. which is already cooler than the minimum opening temp of the thermostat. :shock: it appears that Subaru is a bit bass ackwards in the placement of their thermostat and it works perfectly as long as the stock 2 core radiator is used. Also, a little word on the CRS Coolsafe thermo: It is made by Motorad which also makes a 170 deg fail open thermostatfor about $20 the Coolsafe 160 was $60. (cough) The reason is buried in that low temp thermostat link I previously mentioned. It appears that someone called Motorad requesting a 16odeg failsafe thermostat and they were told that Motorad didn't make one and had no plans to due to very low demand and the fact that the tooling for it was about $15k. So my bet is that CRS ponied up the $$$ for the tooling in return for the exclusive marketing rights for the product. (If there are any CRS reps reading this, feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken) thus, the $59 price on the thermostat to recapture their investment. It works so far as I can tell, I bought a new temp sensor and instrument pack so my gauge works now but I'm planning on a full complement of Prosafe gauges now as I have Really learned my lesson about not running equipment without effective AND functional monitoring hardware. that was just plain dumb doh.

Jeff
'92 Legacy SS ej20g mugged, desnorked, TD04, , MBC, CAI,v2 i/c, JDM STi v2 close ratio 5sp w/4.11's, short shifted.
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Post by rockethound »

evolutionmovement wrote:Yeah, I agree with Doug - the radiator didn't have anything to do with it unless it was defective. You should have had an eye on the temp gauge before it got that hot. The only bad design in this cooling system (which is usually very bulletproof and far better than most) is a consequence of the engine type - the pocket above the water pump can collect air in the system and prevent the pump from circulating. Burping the system is absolutely critical and I usually have to do it several times after changing radiators in and out and driving it on short trips. Bad head gasket can cause this as well. I'd replace those HGs and change the oil due to the heat that engine experienced. Make sure you check everything for warpage.
evolutionmovement,

I,m going to keep an eye on the temps and oil for possible H/G damage, It's been checked before each startup and so far the levels have been good. Bad oil's out and new oil's in I just hope the bearings are ok as it did get hot enough to melt the plastic jacket off of the knock sensor :shock: It's running synthetic so hopefully the oil still had some lube capacity in it. I do think I might have a seating problem on the thermostat gasket, it's not leaking but there still seems to be a little steam coming from down there. I had a hell of a time trying to get the shermostat gasket to seat in it's counterbore, is there a secret to that? the factory thermostat miked out to 2.593 and the Coolsafe was 2.551 so that's not it.

Jeff
'92 Legacy SS ej20g mugged, desnorked, TD04, , MBC, CAI,v2 i/c, JDM STi v2 close ratio 5sp w/4.11's, short shifted.
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Post by evolutionmovement »

Burping takes more than one shot in all cases I've experienced. The air bubbles collect in various spots and it requires varying loads to move them into the radiator where they can be removed. It also helps a lot to squeeze the hoses.

First you replace a radiator because it cracked, but don't try to discover the cause, then AFTER massive overheating, you test the thermostat, see that it opens, and replace it anyway with an overpriced item. That says to me that you don't really know what you're doing. I'm just trying to help by giving real car experienced advice, so I don't appreciate the attitude. I've worked on cars my whole life, and boats for a little while. Doug's done much more and fabbed a supercharger and turbo system all on his own, not by reading what some kid wrote on NASIOC who probably had mommy pay for everything he had done to his car. I would think a guy with a cooling system problem would check into getting something as simple as a gauge working.
Midnight in a Perfect World on Amazon or order anywhere. The first book in a quartet chronicling the rise of a man from angry criminal to philanthropist. Midnight... is a distopic noirish novel featuring 'Duchess', a modified 1990 Subaru Legacy wagon.
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Post by rockethound »

At 45 years old, I've been doing this for quite awhile, the radiator tank cracked due to 267,000 mi of various hard use. I've changed many thermostats on many different makes and never had a problem. This was the first time on a subaru. I Never make mistakes twice. I've had 4 Subaru's since '93 and never had a problem on any of them except for bad clutch on the '98 RS. I've been building hot rods and high performance vehicles since I was 15, so experience is not the issue either. Nor do I flame others over their mistakes, I look at it as live and learn. If you don't learn from your mistakes and avoid them in the future then you really have no one else to blame for them eh. As far as the folks on NASIOC, this BBS is affiliated to some extent and alot of the people on it are for the most part co-members. There is alot of good experience and good information to be found on this and other BBS and not all of it seems to make it to everyone unless you look.
As far as the rich boy and daddy's money, I do not have a comment there as that again is a flame job; hoever I can say that there are obviously other people who have had the problem because that forum was fairly long and had some well established and respected members names on it. Now, before we slam someone who has made a mistake and posted it for others to read AND LEARN from, maybe we should just leave the flames out of it and take it as what it is...information and if a calm and civil comment cannot be made, please reserve the bandwidth for those who can. :-D
By the way, my first hotrod was a '70 Mustang with a 450HP BOSS
351 which I built by myself with my own money when I was 17.

I welcome constructive comments and suggestions but prefer to pass on the destructive comments.

Thanks,
Jeff
'92 Legacy SS ej20g mugged, desnorked, TD04, , MBC, CAI,v2 i/c, JDM STi v2 close ratio 5sp w/4.11's, short shifted.
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Post by evolutionmovement »

We get a lot of people on here now that are kids and have really no clue at all, so maybe I overreacted to your sarcasm, but all I can go by is a response, which sucks compared to when you talk to someone in person. Things can get easily overblown especially when I've been a bit ticked off in general lately. I hope that my more constructive advice can help.
Midnight in a Perfect World on Amazon or order anywhere. The first book in a quartet chronicling the rise of a man from angry criminal to philanthropist. Midnight... is a distopic noirish novel featuring 'Duchess', a modified 1990 Subaru Legacy wagon.
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Post by douglas vincent »

Jeff, not to fight, but rather to debate.

The water flow is left to right, as you look at the engine bay. The water flows out the top left of the radiator, through the block, hits the water pump and at this point, is constantly pumped through the heater hoses and interior heater core, and when the water is hot enough, the thermostat opens and back out the LOWER section in the the lower radiator hose. The thermostat is in CONSTANT contact with the block coolant. Think about it. The water pump, which contains the thermostat, is constantly pumping the heated coolant through the heating system, EVEN IF THE THERMOSTAT HAS NOT OPENED!
Reddevil, Awaiting new heart, will it ever happen?
1990 wagon, EJ25 12.3 @ 116.5 FAST Family wagon getting new motor soon
1992 wagon, wifes daily, high compression
1992 Touring wagon, should I keep it?
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Post by rockethound »

Doug,
both my haynes and my chilton guide shows the coolant flows out of the engine through the water passage beneath the intake manifold, into the radiator through and out of the radiator thru the bottom hose and back into the waterpump via the thermostat housing. They can't both be wrong. I know it sounds backwards(and it is :D ) I don't have access to a factory set of service manuals for my Subie's but the page in the chilton guide is 1-41 and the pages in the haynes guide are 3-5 thru 3-6. they call out the upper right radiator hose as radiator inlet and the lower left hose as radiator outlet. looks like it did warp one or both heads though, as it is blowing bubbles into the coolant overflow bottle when I blip the throttle so, I may have to pick your brain when it comes time to take this thing apart. I've followed the twincharging post so it looks like you definitely know your way around the insides of the ej series motors.

thanks,
Jeff

Jeff
'92 Legacy SS ej20g mugged, desnorked, TD04, , MBC, CAI,v2 i/c, JDM STi v2 close ratio 5sp w/4.11's, short shifted.
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Post by PhyrraM »

To add to the observations....

The waterpump is a centrifical device. It basically slings water from the center to the outside. The housing has passages cast into to perform these functions.

If you look at a ej22t water pump, which I just did, the thermostat housing is clearly directed into the center of the impellers. The cavity around the impellers (which looks very much like a turbo housing) is also very clearly directed into the void on the front of the block. This area directly feeds a large galley that crosses to the other case half.

So, as much as I know that Doug knows his stuff, in this case I believe he is wrong. The cooling system goes ...thermostat>lower block> upper crossover pipe> upper radiator> lower radiator> back to thermostat.

However, what is correct in previous posts is that there IS always water circulating just behind the thermostat from the heater circuit and the oil cooler circuit (if equipped). The 'sensor' part of the thermostat is also directly in this constantly flowing coolant.

So as long as the pump is pumping (not vacuum locked or broken) and the system is properly full, the thermostat should open properly.

One possible problem I can see is a plugged, missing or capped heater core. If the heater core loop is taken out of the system THEN there is a strong possiblity of no coolant flow, and no thermostat opening because of it. Also a removed heater core should be bypassed and not capped.

Another possible problem can be a thermostat installed with the 'sensor' side installed backwards, twords the hose and not the block as it should be.
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Post by rockethound »

heh, oh boy, the heater worked great, that's why I pulled over when it started blowing cold air. I don't have a dismounted waterpump handy but it's got to have some method of circulating water across the element while it's closed. I can't figure out why it would overheat like that when I doubled or tripled the cooling capacity of the radiator. I just keep coming back to the cooled water returning from the radiator. I think I'm going to take a break from thinking about it for the night, it's giving me a headache. :)

Jeff
'92 Legacy SS ej20g mugged, desnorked, TD04, , MBC, CAI,v2 i/c, JDM STi v2 close ratio 5sp w/4.11's, short shifted.
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Post by douglas vincent »

Well, they are.... :lol:

In fact, if you look at the upper crossover pipe, it will have an arrow pointing in the directioin of water flow.

Also, look that this picture, they are of an NA and Turbo model waterpumps.

Image

The part of the thermostat that contacts the hot water and opens up (the spring) is INSIDE the waterpump, where the hotwater is, not OUTSIDE, on the radiator side.

Also note the output line for the heater core, and in the turbo case, the output line for the oiler cooler.
Reddevil, Awaiting new heart, will it ever happen?
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Post by douglas vincent »

Also, the rotation of the gear is counterclockwise, which forced the water OUT the heater core line, and the thermostat when open.
Reddevil, Awaiting new heart, will it ever happen?
1990 wagon, EJ25 12.3 @ 116.5 FAST Family wagon getting new motor soon
1992 wagon, wifes daily, high compression
1992 Touring wagon, should I keep it?
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Post by IronMonkeyL255 »

I hate to say it, but the FSM agrees with the fact that water enters the radiator at the top and exits it back into the water pump through the thermostat.
Disclaimer: If anything I post is inaccurate, please correct me. I do not wish to add to the misinformation floating around on the internet.

That being said, everything I post is accurate to the best of my knowledge.

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Post by PhyrraM »

Direction of rotation means little. The coolant will flow from the inside of the wheel to the outside. Many water pumps don't have any 'spin' on the vanes at all. It seems like the curves on the impeller would 'scoop' water from the edge to the center, but it's simply not so. While that might work at very low speeds at high speeds centrifical force most definately moves coolant center>outside.

Think about what happens to your boy on a merry-go-round at the park. Same principal.

Now pull out one of those thermostats and see where that reservior connects in relation to the impeller. The thermostat cavity dumps water to the center of the impeller, hence it must be the 'in'. Next time your about to pull a motor, pull the upper hose and crank it. See if the coolant comes out of the block or the radiator. :P

Either way.. we agree that the 'sensor' side of the thermostat is always in contact with flowing coolant when everything is operating correctly. Hence, I still believe a better radiator cannot cause overheating in and of itself.
'93 Winestone SS Auto, '91 Pearl White SS.
'93 Pure White SS EJ20G slanty intercooled, SIDESWIPED! In stasis.
'94 FWD and '95 AWD Laguna Blue SVXs.
2017 Pure Red BRZ Limited w/Performance pack
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Post by douglas vincent »

OK, I could be wrong. I will check tommorrow. But I made a pretty good Devils Advocate if I was wrong. hahah.

One more reason I am/was sure of the flow direction is because I have held the lower hose and the upper at the same time, and because the lower hose is cold, and the upper hose is HOT, I assumed the hot water up top would have to flow through the radiator to cool down and enter the block through the waterpump. But now as I type this, I realize my error, for if this were true, then the cooled coolent would suddenly be forced through the heater core and the heating system would suddenly suffer!

But I am still checking in the morning! ;-)
Reddevil, Awaiting new heart, will it ever happen?
1990 wagon, EJ25 12.3 @ 116.5 FAST Family wagon getting new motor soon
1992 wagon, wifes daily, high compression
1992 Touring wagon, should I keep it?
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Post by BXSS »

I have to agree with Doug on the thought that the new Radiator did not cause the overheating problem.

I have a '99 Impreza with a Koyo radiator on it & never caused a CEL on its ultrsensitive OBDII system (that once thru a code for fuel temp...).
The Koyo was about 4+ x as thick as the N/A Impreza core, & causes the temp to drop to 13x* in the winter on the highway @ 65+MPH.
Summer HW @ 65+ MPH = 150's - low 160's.
It also stopped the coolant temp creep I was had under boost....

I actually had a problem with my Crucial Racing t-stat, causing the car to run hot on the highway & normal in the city.
Took that piece of junk off, put on a stock t-stat & had no more problems.
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Post by douglas vincent »

Well, I couldnt prove to myself that the flow is reverse of what everyone is stating, so odds are high that I am wrong. I admit it. :)
Reddevil, Awaiting new heart, will it ever happen?
1990 wagon, EJ25 12.3 @ 116.5 FAST Family wagon getting new motor soon
1992 wagon, wifes daily, high compression
1992 Touring wagon, should I keep it?
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Post by evolutionmovement »

It sounds like you might be getting air pocket cavitation. If the pump is working (which it likely is), try pulling the T-stat altogether and see if the problem returns. If it does, it's highly likely the air bubbles you're getting from the bad head gaskets/warped heads/etc. are collecting at the impeller. If you're getting that much air in the system it might not matter, but steady-state engine speed is the killer, varying engine speed and occasionally stopping to squeeze the bottom hose seems to displace the air from the cavity a little, but that only gets you so far.
Midnight in a Perfect World on Amazon or order anywhere. The first book in a quartet chronicling the rise of a man from angry criminal to philanthropist. Midnight... is a distopic noirish novel featuring 'Duchess', a modified 1990 Subaru Legacy wagon.
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Post by rockethound »

Is it possible that I popped the head gasket(s) first , leading up to this unfortunate debacle? 265,000 mi on a turbocharged engine and all probably had something to do with it. I do know that it had never overheated prior to this. Boost has been at 10lbs for al least the last 90,000 mi without a hitch till I installed the I/C but it's still running @ 10 lbs.

Jeff
'92 Legacy SS ej20g mugged, desnorked, TD04, , MBC, CAI,v2 i/c, JDM STi v2 close ratio 5sp w/4.11's, short shifted.
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Post by evolutionmovement »

That would be my guess and the subsequent overheating made it much worse. I noticed these cars don't usually give real obvious clues when they start to go like some cars do. Usually you just get some oil in the coolant, but the times I've seen it, it looks like it could just be corrosion from an old radiator - I've never seen it get that chocolate milk look and never seen signs of coolant in the oil. By the time you see air bubbles in the coolant, it's probably been gone for a while. On the one hand, it lets you drive the car with a bad HG for a while with little trouble, but on the other hand, you might not realize there's a problem with the damn thing until it's REALLY gone and you're on the side of the road swearing.
Midnight in a Perfect World on Amazon or order anywhere. The first book in a quartet chronicling the rise of a man from angry criminal to philanthropist. Midnight... is a distopic noirish novel featuring 'Duchess', a modified 1990 Subaru Legacy wagon.
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Post by 93forestpearl »

I've got the Koyo in with the OEM 172 degree thermostat. I see temps in the coolant bridge around the 185-190 degree range. Sometimes when I hammer on it, the thermostat opens and all of a sudden i'm at 170.


BTW, NAPA thermostats are junk!

Image
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Post by evolutionmovement »

Definitely. You can't get anything less than an OEM thermostat. Maybe some high-end stuff, but no generics - it's not worth saving $8.
Midnight in a Perfect World on Amazon or order anywhere. The first book in a quartet chronicling the rise of a man from angry criminal to philanthropist. Midnight... is a distopic noirish novel featuring 'Duchess', a modified 1990 Subaru Legacy wagon.
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