Well, what CAN a 2.2/DOHC do?

Heads, valves, pistons, rods, crankshaft, etc...

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ImprezaRSC
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Well, what CAN a 2.2/DOHC do?

Post by ImprezaRSC » Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:36 pm

Just what can the STOCK 2.2 block actually handle?

Can a stock 2.2L+ '98 DOHC heads handle 600hp and 32psi of boost? The Stage V t3/t4 on the car will support nearly that figure. With the right fuel and timing curves on E85, I don't see why it wouldn't do 600hp. It's a healthy target and I have the fuel, turbo, and tranny to handle it. 32psi (2.2bar) is my target boost level.

When it comes time to rebuild then I'll strengthen everything. The combo runs, but I'm looking for the upper limits of what it can actually do before mechanical failure. 600hp seems to be the upper limit.
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gijonas
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Post by gijonas » Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:40 pm

If you are going with a subaru block then the 2.2t is as good as it gets.If the 2.2 isnt up for it then you have no better option,maybe custom billet shit but thats retarded.
94SS.Wiseco forged pistons,TD04,TMIC,WALBRO 225,440's,3" all the way,revtronix stage 2,enough other crap to fill the internet.

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Post by ImprezaRSC » Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:06 am

I'll clarify. What is the limit of the stock shortblock assembly?

Also, when do the valves float from too much boost? If there's one thing high on my priority list it is valve springs.
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PhyrraM
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Post by PhyrraM » Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:55 am

Well, the pistons are still cast. And the rods are not as good as USDM STI rods.

It all depends on the tune, but with average life 350HP. 400HP with a short life. About the same as a EJ257 w/cast pistons.

Forged pistons and aftermarket rods will put it up as high as any other built Subaru block.
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ImprezaRSC
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Post by ImprezaRSC » Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:04 am

Thanks. That's what I was looking for.

Define "short" life, please.
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douglas vincent
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Post by douglas vincent » Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:37 am

minor detonation at 300or more whp and poof go the stock ringlands.
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Post by dscoobydoo » Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:39 am

read up on reddevil's ( Doug's) builds here and on Nasioc.

If anyone knows what it can handle, he does.
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ImprezaRSC
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Post by ImprezaRSC » Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:51 am

Doug, did you ever get enough fuel in those builds?
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edgeofvamp
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Post by edgeofvamp » Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:16 am

Ah, dumb question, but are you using a 2.2 turbo block or an N/A block?

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Post by 206er » Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:15 am

why shoot for that much power unless you have the drivetrain to back it up?
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Post by 93forestpearl » Thu Dec 24, 2009 2:37 pm

You're not going to get there with N/A camshafts, as they have way too much overlap to be useful at those pressure ratios. 28 psi out of a GT3782 on those heads only netted about 300 whp. 11.5:1 AFR, etc. A few other friends have been limited to just over 300 whp on N/A heads with various sized turbochargers.




On a different note, I can't seem to find a compressor map for a T3/T4 that will support that kind of airflow or pressure ratio. The T04E 60 trim compressor will support about 50 lb/min of airflow, but at only a pressure ratio of just under 2.4 meaning 17-18 psi. It really falls off over a pressure ratio of 2.6.

I know Turbonetics says their T3/T04E will support up to 600 hp, but you need a large enough motor or the rpm capability to get their. A stock EJ22E shortblock with EJ25D heads just isn't going to do it.
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Post by ImprezaRSC » Thu Dec 24, 2009 6:02 pm

Image

It's a 2.2L solid deck turbo block with '98 RS heads.

The turbo is basically a Stage V Garrett. The wheels and center section are from a 60-1. It's a large 60-1 turbine and compressor wheel purposely put inside smaller housings. the premise is making a lot of torque more than high rpm power. I drove this car before and it had full boost by 4k on gasoline with no tuning on 18psi.
It put down 280whp through an automatic on a Dynojet.

We're getting somewhere on decoding this combination. I've only recently been able to give it my undivided attention. It will receive a 4in downpipe and a new WAIC.
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Post by gijonas » Thu Dec 24, 2009 6:13 pm

Boost doesnt cause valves to float.BTW.
94SS.Wiseco forged pistons,TD04,TMIC,WALBRO 225,440's,3" all the way,revtronix stage 2,enough other crap to fill the internet.

THE TRIBUTE BUILD>>>LINKY LINK>>> http://bbs.legacycentral.org/viewtopic.php?p=295455#295455

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Post by ImprezaRSC » Thu Dec 24, 2009 6:15 pm

It doesn't blow open the intake valves with weak valvesprings?
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93forestpearl
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Post by 93forestpearl » Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:36 pm

28 psi has not caused an issue with 25D valve springs so far.
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ImprezaRSC
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Post by ImprezaRSC » Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:45 pm

Is there a set of cams recommended for these heads and boost level? I was thinking of some old school STI cams from this era of heads.
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gijonas
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Post by gijonas » Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:22 pm

I should correct myself.It should take a lot more pressure than that to actually hold the valves open,i could be wrong but that would be on the rear of my mind.
94SS.Wiseco forged pistons,TD04,TMIC,WALBRO 225,440's,3" all the way,revtronix stage 2,enough other crap to fill the internet.

THE TRIBUTE BUILD>>>LINKY LINK>>> http://bbs.legacycentral.org/viewtopic.php?p=295455#295455

93forestpearl
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Post by 93forestpearl » Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:04 pm

Any phase 1 turbo cam will work.




The integrity of the 22T rods and pistons are questionable at those power levels. The older rod design is not nearly as strong as the newer rods. Also, the crowns of the 22T pistons are not supported for almost half of the piston. Instead of holes for the oil rings, it is wide open all along the sides of the piston.


Wisecos and Eagles are relatively cheap, but after machine work, seals, bearings, and headgaskets, you could damn near have a new EJ257 shortblock.
→Dan

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ImprezaRSC
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Post by ImprezaRSC » Fri Dec 25, 2009 12:26 am

I've never seen these pistons outside of the block before. Is there really an oil "window" instead of a hole? I've been learning details like this over the last couple of days. Things like that are helpful to know.

Note to self--do not go completely nuts on this specific 2.2L :lol:.

Learning stuff like this is helping to steer the course of my project. It makes more sense now to work on the fuel system, ecu, and other peripheral stuff first. I'll have the fuel system, turbo, and driveline that can handle it and just keep the boost turned down.
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93forestpearl
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Post by 93forestpearl » Fri Dec 25, 2009 2:27 am

Yeah they have an oil window. I gave away all my old pistons otherwise I could post a picture.
→Dan

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Post by ImprezaRSC » Fri Dec 25, 2009 3:59 am

No worries. Thanks for all the info, tho.
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93forestpearl
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Post by 93forestpearl » Fri Dec 25, 2009 6:34 am

I wish you hard a larger, higher res pic of your engine bay though.



I'm cleaning up my bay while I have the car down for an extra winter. Washer bottle will be in the trunk as a combined IC sprayer and washer fluid tank. Battery is back there too.


I'm just wondering about other plumbing like PCV stuff that I can't even think about until I get to that bridge.
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Post by napphappy » Fri Dec 25, 2009 9:53 am

I also will be finding the limits of the same block, head combination. My build is currently in progress.
Stock EJ22t
EJ25D heads
20g
850cc denso
Hydra EMS with wideband

As far as NA overlap....Look Here http://bbs.legacycentral.org/viewtopic.php?t=25770
I listed the Cam Timing of the NA compared to 2 Turbo motors. It looks to me the EJ25d is somewhere between the two.
1997 White BG Ltd 5MT, EJ22T with Wiescos, EJ20R Heads, Two large dents R.I.P
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Post by 93forestpearl » Fri Dec 25, 2009 6:25 pm

Something isn't adding up.


I was making 300 whp with a GT2871R on a 22T longblock. On Derek's car with 25D heads, we're running the GT3782 at 28 psi with reasonable fuel and timing, and its only making 300 whp. That turbo at that pressure ratio on a 2.24L motor is flowing upwards of 50-55 lb/min, or more.

Also, with a reasonable AFR under load, the back of the car is full of black soot, telling me the motor is richer than we think it is. Too much overlap would allow a significant amount of oxygen into the exhaust making the wideband tell me it is leaner than it really is. He's going to some aggressive Kelfords this winter, and we'll see what the difference in output is.
→Dan

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Post by ImprezaRSC » Fri Dec 25, 2009 7:03 pm

It uses some nice hose for the emissions and such. I'll be putting in a catch can or two and relocating the battery. This manifold has slightly different routing for the emissions lines than a USDM manifold. I'll be taking it off to see if it needs port matching. But, it needs to be above freezing for me to do that :lol:.

In regards to both of those other engines making the same hp...I bet you were both running a 3in DP as well. I'll be upgrading to a 4in all the way back. Another car I worked on with a 2.0L has a 3.5in Megan DP. It felt quicker than this one and had instant boost with decent top end. 3in DP past 18psi I really think might be too small. Since the turbo kit was custom at the time (the rotated GT35r kits are based on this design) I have to get a custom made downpipe to do that. 300whp "walls" have been attributed to that before.

The throttle should be snappy with no lag at all. A switzer kit that was also made after this system had really quick boost response with a 4in downpipe. NA overlap on boost should be as snappy as an n/a car underfoot. I'll be port matching the exhaust manifold on this one as well.
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