Starting Problem

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cul8tr
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by cul8tr »

AMEN!!! On the NGK plugs. I've learned my lesson.
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by Jessekrs123 »

cul8tr wrote:AMEN!!! On the NGK plugs. I've learned my lesson.
Glad you sorted out your problem.

But my lack of spark happens before the plugs. It wouldn't start for me at work the other night, but I didn't have my tools to test so I pop started it, brought it home and haven't had the problem yet. I go outside to start it and hope to god it doesn't start sometimes. Frustrating to say the least...
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by Jessekrs123 »

Hey guys, I'm back with some good news.

My car has been having starting issues for the past day, thank god because now I am able to test it. So I tested everything and everything tested out just fine. I was getting 12v to the starter switch on the ECU so then I began to think.

The car will start even if it is the SLIGHTEST bit warm. I have some resistors laying around, and I found some 680 ohm resistors which according to my Haynes book would tell the ECU that the coolant temp is somewhere around 140*.

So I figured I would put that resistor into the connector and see what happens. Here is what happened:

1. I attempted to start the car with the connector plugged in, no dice.
2. I unplugged the connector and left it out, my cooling fans starting going, the ECU went into safe mode, attempted to start and no dice yet again.
3. I then placed my 680 ohm resistor to trick the ECU into thinking it was warm and voila, the car started right up no problem, did not even sputter or anything, just idled low for a cold start.

So now I have to wire in a toggle so that during cold starts I can get the ECU to think that the car is warm to get it started, then when it starts I will toggle it off so that the ECU gets the correct reading from the sensor and so the ECU knows when to trip the cooling fans.

Do you guys have any advice on how to wire this up? I really don't want to have to unplug the sensor, place the resistor in, start the car, go back out, take the resistor out then plug the sensor in.

I know that this is not the greatest or smartest fix in the world, but as long as it gets my car started, then this is what I'm going with. It is a very solid, reliable car so if it starts, it's good to go.
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by Legacy777 »

I know you said you switched out the coolant temp sensor with a "known good one". However, I think I'd try a brand new sensor from the dealer before messing with the resistor. They're like $20 or so from www.subarugenuineparts.com or any of the other online subaru dealers.
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by Jessekrs123 »

The known working sensor has less than 2,000 miles on it and it tests out within the range it should be.

The car is running exceptionally well except for one thing. I keep getting code 32 for the o2 sensor while driving. Do you think my messing with the coolant temp sensor has anything to do with it or is it just coincidence that my car keeps getting one problem after another?

The o2 sensor is relatively new, I had it on my old wagon and drove it for about 3k miles, then I put an additional 4k miles on it with the sedan. I am going to test the o2 sensor circuit for ground and power and see what I get. The thing is, the code is only tripped while driving, I let it idle for like 30 minutes and got nothing, but 5 minutes into driving it finally came up. Am I due for a new o2 sensor already?

Also, how would I go about wiring in the toggle switch. I have a 2 way switch, but I believe that triggers one wire from another. I need the temp sensor wire to be able to read the correct readings from actual sensor in the "off" position, and from that same wire splice in the resistor so it can read the 680 ohm reading when turned to "on". Does anybody have any idea on how this can be accomplished?
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by subydaddy »

How is the resistor wired up when its changing the signal the ecu see's?
Last edited by subydaddy on Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by Jessekrs123 »

subydaddy wrote:How is the resistor wired up when its changing the signal the ecu see's?
Well when I tested it today, I simply unplugged the connector and inserted the resistor into the plug. When I did that the car started right up right after it failed to start twice without the resistor.

I gave it some thought and realized that I should not even have to hook up a toggle because:
- As the coolant temperature increases, the resistance decreases.
- The 680 ohm resistance represents about 140* F which is too cold for the fans to activate.
- Once the engine warms up past 140* and the resistance becomes lower than 680 ohms, then the electrical current will take the path of least resistance and bypass the resistor and go through the sensor itself so that the ECU will get the correct resistance reading and the fans will be able to operate at the correct temperature.

So what it will essentially be running in a "closed loop" untill the engine warms up past 140*.

Would somebody be able to tell me what temperature must the coolant be in order for the cooling fans to kick on? I just want to be sure that the "closed loop" setting is below that temperature. I heard that most Subaru thermostats open up at 192*. Any input is greatly appreciated.
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by subydaddy »

So, take harness off, plug resistor in (one end into each tab on the harness?)

Is that really all there is to it?

I need to find a wiring diagram. I still don't know where the other wire from the sensor goes.

I'll try this out next time it won't start. But I think I'll add a switch if it does work, I don't know enough to know if it'll have any negative effects being plugged in all the time.

Nice work by the way...
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by Jessekrs123 »

subydaddy wrote:So, take harness off, plug resistor in (one end into each tab on the harness?)

Is that really all there is to it?

I need to find a wiring diagram. I still don't know where the other wire from the sensor goes.

I'll try this out next time it won't start. But I think I'll add a switch if it does work, I don't know enough to know if it'll have any negative effects being plugged in all the time.

Nice work by the way...
Yes, disconnect the sensor and put one side of the resistor into one side of the connector, and the other side of the resistor into the other side of the connector.

That is all there is to it.

I know that one sensor goes to the ECU, so I imagine that the other wire is either a ground or a power source or something of that.

I thought of it and it would be really really complicated to make a resistance switch. This being because most toggle switches bring have an "open" circuit when turned off, and a "closed" circuit when turned on. This would not work because the "closed" circuit which would be near 0 ohms would cancel out any higher ohm reading due to the law that electrical current takes the path of least resistance.

When I get out of school tomorrow I will test out the resistor compared to the actual sensor. According to what I've come across, a 680 ohm resistor will allow it to start and once it warms up past 140* (680 ohms) the electrical current will take the path of least resistance which would be through the actual sensor as opposed to the resistor. So basically the resistor will cancel itself out once the engine gets warm enough making it an automatic switch over. I will be splicing into my wires tomorrow with some female prongs so I can test out different resistors to see what works and what doesn't. The higher resistor that I can get to work, the better because then it will switch over to the actual sensor much faster than the 680 ohm resistor. If this works than the ECU will be able to switch on the cooling fans when needed. Then again, I have not tested this but I will be tomorrow to confirm that the current will eventually be going through the sensor as opposed to the resistor. I will confirm that there will be an automatic switch over. After I confirm that I will be testing out various resistors to see how high I can get the resistance before it won't start.
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by Legacy777 »

I hate to tell you this, but your theory about the current taking the path of least resistance is not correct in this scenario.

The engine coolant temp sensor has two wires going to it, and both come from the ECU. One is a +5v reference voltage, and the other wire goes back to the ECU to read the resultant voltage after it goes through the coolant temp sensor.

The coolant temp sensor is a simple electrical circuit. As mentioned the ECU uses a +5v reference voltage. The ECU knows the exact voltage of this reference voltage it sends out to all the various sensors. As that reference voltage goes through the sensor, it will change/decrease due to the resistance in the sensor. The resulting voltage then goes back to the ECU where it is read and compared against a lookup table to determine what the coolant temp sensor's actual reading is.

With the added resistor, you are creating a parallel circuit/resistance. This parallel circuit will create an equivalent resistance of both the resistor and coolant temp sensor resistance combined. I'd suggest checking out this site and search for some additional info on some of the various electrical thoeries. Ohm's law (V=IR) is going to be one of the fundamental formulas you'd use to work with electrical circuits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohm's_law
http://www.tpub.com/neets/book1/chapter3/1-26.htm

To do what you want to do, you would need to create a switching circuit with a single pole, double throw (SPDT) relay.

http://www.the12volt.com/relays/relays.asp

Pin 85 would be wired up to your switch in the cabin, with one lead of the switch going to the relay and the other lead going to an ignition switched source (works while the key is in the "ON" & "Start" position) (this is important)
Pin 86 would go to ground
Pin 30 would come from one of the ECU's coolant temp sensor leads
Pin 87a would go to coolant sensor lead that you cut to hook to Pin 30
Pin 87 would be hooked up to the new resistor you have, and would need to be spliced into the return coolant sensor wire going to the ECU.

I've got some basic info on my site about relays, which may help if you're not very familar with them.

http://www.surrealmirage.com/subaru/tip.html#relay


If you're dead set on doing this, I can draw up a diagram which may help, but if you're not very familar with how electrical circuits work, I'd suggest you try and learn a little more before tackling this.

I still believe that you have a problem elsewhere and by doing this you're just masking the problem (Fixing the symptom, not the problem).

I don't recall, but have you tried a different ECU?
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by Jessekrs123 »

Thanks Josh, you are really helpful. It's unfortunate that I've already hooked everything up. Here is what I did:

Image
Image

The car did start with the resistor in the actual plug, but that was when it was disconnected from the sensor. So I see how having both of them wired in would cause a problem. I thought that the path of least resistance applied but I guess not.

I am only getting a resistance reading when the car is turned off, not when it is turned on.

Would you be able to draw me up a diagram for a switch if you don't mind? I know a little about electrical systems, but not a lot.

I've attempted to acquire a new ECU, but I couldn't find any locally, so I'm pretty set on this band-aid.

Everything is working properly, there is no CEL and the fans are turning on once it gets warm enough.
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by Legacy777 »

You do not want to be using your multi-meter to measure resistance when the car is running and a voltage source is present in the electrical circuit. You can't take a reading with voltage in the system, and it may cause damage to the meter.

I'll try and draw up a diagram in the next day or so.

I would suggest posting in Parts shed for a used ECU. See if you can find one to "test" and if it doesn't fix your problem, you could return it. If the wiring is good, and sensor is good, that only leaves the ECU. That or another sensor is giving the ECU a bogus reading, which is causing your problems.
Josh

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Re: Starting Problem

Post by Jessekrs123 »

Legacy777 wrote:You do not want to be using your multi-meter to measure resistance when the car is running and a voltage source is present in the electrical circuit. You can't take a reading with voltage in the system, and it may cause damage to the meter.

I'll try and draw up a diagram in the next day or so.

I would suggest posting in Parts shed for a used ECU. See if you can find one to "test" and if it doesn't fix your problem, you could return it. If the wiring is good, and sensor is good, that only leaves the ECU. That or another sensor is giving the ECU a bogus reading, which is causing your problems.
Thanks a bunch Josh, I really appreciate it.

Right now the two prongs are just floating so it won't be effecting any readings. I figured if the car won't start I'd put the resistors into the two prongs, and if it did then I wouldn't have to worry about it. Then once the car is started I would just take the resistor out.

Now that you have said something about the parallel circuit, perhaps if the combined resistance is adequate to get the car started than I'll just stick with this. Once the car is started then I would take the resistor out so the ECU will be running by the sensor's circuit. This or I can hook up the switch.
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by Legacy777 »

You know.....I was thinking about this some more. What is your typical ambient temperature when you try and start the car and it doesn't start?


The resultant resistance with the parallel circuit with an assumed ambient temp of 68 deg F is around 507 ohms, which is around 170 deg F. Even at 30 deg F ambient, the combined resistance is still 562 ohms. This puts you around 165 deg F coolant temp.

With the ECU and wiring working correctly, I just can't see this not being a problem with the coolant temp sensor. Humor me, and spend $20 to get a brand new coolant temp sensor from the dealer. Or at the very least, take a reading of the coolant temp sensor's resistance when you're trying to start the car and it won't start. Please note the ambient temperature where the car is located. If it's in a garage, obviously it's going to be warmer than outside temps.

I've got a nice handy-dandy chart that we can verify the temperature vs. resistance.
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by Jessekrs123 »

Legacy777 wrote:You know.....I was thinking about this some more. What is your typical ambient temperature when you try and start the car and it doesn't start?


The resultant resistance with the parallel circuit with an assumed ambient temp of 68 deg F is around 507 ohms, which is around 170 deg F. Even at 30 deg F ambient, the combined resistance is still 562 ohms. This puts you around 165 deg F coolant temp.

With the ECU and wiring working correctly, I just can't see this not being a problem with the coolant temp sensor. Humor me, and spend $20 to get a brand new coolant temp sensor from the dealer. Or at the very least, take a reading of the coolant temp sensor's resistance when you're trying to start the car and it won't start. Please note the ambient temperature where the car is located. If it's in a garage, obviously it's going to be warmer than outside temps.

I've got a nice handy-dandy chart that we can verify the temperature vs. resistance.
I'll keep a tab. Luckily I wired the coolant temp sensor up so I can read the resistance in the car.

The temperature doesn't really help. It will start in -20* weather one day, than not the next day. It is just intermittent crap that I can't figure out or predict.

I have a chart from my Hayne's book, I tried mapping it on my graphing calculator but it seems a little bit off.

The car is never stored in a garage (my father has all of his toys in there).

I'm avoiding using the resistor with the sensor plugged in. I just don't know the what the resistance would be with the parallel circuit so I'm not going to risk it. Today when I got out of school it wouldn't start, so I unplugged the sensor and put the resistor in and voila.

A nice kid came over and asked me if I needed a jump, I told him that it just needs a magic touch. After witnessing me failing to start, I put the resistor in and it started right up. He was like :shock: haha. I then thanked him for his efforts and went on my way.
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by subydaddy »

Well my night and morning was absolutely ruined because of this damn problem. I think I found the only hotel lacking outside outlets in all of Anchorage, so I drove to the nearest radio shack but it was out of business. Then I drove to another one and ran into the same problem. Finally made it to the third shack and they had just closed. None of them are open on Sundays. Finally got home, barely got 5 hours of sleep (for a combined 8 hours over the last two nights), came in the next morning before work with my old temp sensor and a torch to get the car started.

I might actually have some time off this week to work on this thing so I thought I'd check to see if you've made some headway with this.
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by Jessekrs123 »

subydaddy wrote:Well my night and morning was absolutely ruined because of this damn problem. I think I found the only hotel lacking outside outlets in all of Anchorage, so I drove to the nearest radio shack but it was out of business. Then I drove to another one and ran into the same problem. Finally made it to the third shack and they had just closed. None of them are open on Sundays. Finally got home, barely got 5 hours of sleep (for a combined 8 hours over the last two nights), came in the next morning before work with my old temp sensor and a torch to get the car started.

I might actually have some time off this week to work on this thing so I thought I'd check to see if you've made some headway with this.
I haven't looked into it much since I found the resistor fix. If I were you, I'd just get a 680 ohm resistor and when it doesn't start, unplug the sensor, put the resistor in and start it up and let it warm to about 1/4 of the way up the gauge. Then turn the car off, take out the resistor and plug everything back in. I've been doing this for the past month and a half and everytime my car failed to start, the resistor worked.
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by Jessekrs123 »

Just a quick update for you fellas out there. I have been trying out some different resistors to see which one works the best.

Here are just 2 results:

With the 680 ohm 1/2 watt 5% tolerance the actual resistance output was 480 ohms +- 10 ohms. I am not really sure why it's actual output is 200 ohms less, maybe from the tables but it has worked everytime so far.

I have been using the 680 ohms resistor for a while, and occasionally it will take some extra cranking with that resistor in.

I went out and bought a 1k ohm 1 watt 5% tolerance resistor and found that the actual resistance output was 620 ohms +- 10 ohms.

I figure that this will help start the car a lot easier because 480 ohms is only 200 ohms away from operating temp resistance at around 230 ohms. I haven't been able to test it yet but with a higher resistance I'm sure it will be able to start much easier.
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by Jessekrs123 »

Bumping this thing up from the dead, but it is becoming colder out lately and I finally had trouble starting my baby up this morning, which I had been anticipating for a while because I wanted to do some more testing.

If you read the previous part of this thread, I have 2 wires running from the coolant temp sensor to measure readings. This morning when it did not start, instead of removing the pigtail from the connector, I simply just put the resistor onto the two prongs in my cabin and it started up just fine! (My pigtail is hanging on by some solder, so I really want to avoid having to remove it)

After I started it up, it idled low like it was warm, then I removed the resistor and it perked up like it should for a cold start. Now I can do everything from the comfort of the driver's seat.

That problem is now accessible... now I just have to address my pesky auto seatbelts and my bad rear wheel bearing...
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by subydaddy »

Darn, I was hoping this update was you findng the solution to your problem.

I'll be dealing with this again soon, just like you... as well as that clicking relay behind the glove box.

Here's to the adventure's this will bring us over the next few months.
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by Jessekrs123 »

subydaddy wrote:Darn, I was hoping this update was you findng the solution to your problem.

I'll be dealing with this again soon, just like you... as well as that clicking relay behind the glove box.

Here's to the adventure's this will bring us over the next few months.
I'm beginning to think that this is the solution. The problem is within the ECU, I have a used ECU sitting around but I have not been able to test it.

As for a clicking relay behind your glove box, I'm pretty sure that is where a cruise control relay is located. See if your cruise works or something.
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by subydaddy »

Yeah, I'm gonna do some testing this winter. All signs point to the coolant temp sensor but it's giving accurate readings (plus I put a new one in, and the one I took out had recently been put in there).

As far as the clicking relay, it's tied in with the A/C system. Suposed to turn off the compresser if the A/C temp gets too low or pressure gets too high. So to solve that problem I simply turned my heater to vent right? Well now that the temp is dropping, I need air to my windshield so I pulled my A/C belt off but yet the relay still clicks away like I have damn behive down there.

I know the problem is electrical but what? and where? When, Who, maybe even "How" applies...
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by Omega79 »

I had the behive click as well. I had 2 issues that was causing it:

1. One of my A/C relays under hood was failing, the click behind the glovebox is the thermostatic switch, will turn off the compressor if the evaporator gets too cold. When it tries to kick the a/c off then back on, the failing relay doesn't fully switch causing the t-switch to freak out.

2. My thermostatic switch was also bad.

Don't know if that is your issue, but it sounds like what I was having.

Hope you figure it out Jessekers. I started to wonder about your starter, but usually that would happen when it's hot, not cold if the starter causes the issue...
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by subydaddy »

Well guys good news and bad news to report. The good: my car starts no matter how cold it is, no problem at all. The bad: I don't know what fixed it.

About two months ago I had to replace my transmission. So, out went the old one, in went the used one. Now, I have no problems starting when cold, my fans work properely, and no more clicking from behind the glove box.

The only two things changed on the car were the transmission (and fluid) and the coolant. So, there must have been a bad ground or poor connection at a harness. Personally I think it could have been at the main engine harness behind the battery, but I don't know.

So, to duplicate what I did simply disconnect your battery and start uplugging random harnesses under the hood. Then go play Forza.
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Re: Starting Problem

Post by Legacy777 »

Well hopefully things will remain working for good.
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