Classic 180-200chp NA Power Questions, Help Requested

[skid542]

I'm laid up sick this weekend so rather than sucking epoxy fumes I'm thinking about my 96' OBW build coming up this spring and had a few engine questions.

I know this issue has been covered before but I wanted to get a little direct input and had a couple specific questions.

Problem:

My 96' Legacy Outback has 220k on the stock 2.2L and I'm looking at a fairly comprehensive rebuild - engine, bushings, suspension (lift) etc. I've got all the major systems figured out except the motor. My power goal is only 180-200chp. The Outback is my camping rig so it gets loaded down and it sees some off-road action. So torque, smooth power curves, and reliability are a requirement.

I already have a set of OBX equal length headers that have been hanging on my wall for 4 years and would like to use them. I also have a set of 2.2L dual port heads that are in good shape and already have a box of valve stem seals that I'd use to rebuild them.

I have ZERO desire to have to deal with any form of engine management on this build. My power goals are not that high. I figure I'll have my injectors cleaned/flowed down at Witchhunters, maybe a new fuel pump, but that's it for fueling.

I also have ZERO desire to run twin cam heads on this build. I am on my SS and don't want to have to deal with the added hassles they bring when I'm working on my non-track car.


Options:

Brand new Phase II 2.5L shortblock, rebuilt phase II 2.5L heads, cams, EQL headers - $3500

110K Phase I 2.5L shortblock, rebuilt 2.2L heads, EQL headers - $1500

Essential new Phase I 2.5L shortbock (needs crank/bearings), rebuilt Phase II 2.5L or 2.2L heads, cams?, EQL headers - $2,500


Specific Questions:

Are there any issues running the Phase I 2.5L shortblock for the high comp. NA with the 2.2L heads? I know the phase I's are a little nortorious for HG failures but understand a good MLS HG will solve this problem?

Anybody see any issues with my factory MAF being able to handle the extra air? I'm inclined to feel I should be fine and seem to recal plenty others running this path prior to me with no issues.

My local subi shop is trying to sell me on the dual mass flywheels that Subaru is selling now to solve clutch chatter. Anybody have any experience with this?

I'm currently running a 99' RS tranny (thank you Matt, still loving it and still LOVING the one in my SS). What power/torque do the stock RS clutchs hold? Any suggestions for a good push style clutch combo for these power levels?



The whole idea behind this build is that the chassis is good shape and the body is very good shape with only a few minor door dings. I'd rather spend $5k to rebuild the major systems instead of buying a new used car that I'm going to have to replace parts on in the next 5 years. I want to do this once this spring and not have to worry about leaking/burning oil, sloppy steering, clutches, timing belts, etc. etc. Because of this approach, the less I have to spend on a reliable motor setup the better as I can address a few other niceties on other systems.

I was originally trying to stay away from the high compression setup just to avoid having to run premium gas, but, considering the potential cost savings from already having heads, manifold, stem seals - it's going to take about 40k mi. of gas to offset the cost of buying more parts. I do also like the idea of more torque down low.


So that's it in a nutshell. Again, I'm not wanting big power, just enough to haul more gear, better two ane passing, and just more fun (I got beat by a Honda Pilot last month... can't let that happen again ).

Let me know what you think. It's been a while since I've really paid attention to many of the sub-forum here due to the business so I'm not real sure what has transpired or if there has been any revelations or new members running similar setups.

Many thanks.

[deadhp1]

I'd recommend a phase 2 ej25 block with your 2 port ej22 heads. It will bump the compression a bit, and you might have to run higher octane gas. You can find an entire phase 2 ej25 for less than $1000. Sell off the heads/intake for $300 and you're a lot better off money wise.

I'm currently putting a complete phase 2 ej25 into my 93 legacy and running into the usual problems of charcoal canister and IACV.

[skid542]

Did some searching and found this on Nasioc - http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthr ... ankenstein

Matt Monson - you're the man! Said it plenty before, and saying it again. Thanks for the exceptionally helpful information you've imparted on the Subi world.

I'm still finishing going through the thread for the details but I think I've settled on the 2.5L w/ 2.2 heads combination.

Now the question comes down to which shortblock. I've got a 2.5 phase I minus crank/bearings and have an extra set of phase I 2.2 heads. Is it worth just getting a new shortblock for the oil pump and water pump (which I have to get anyways) and not deal with building a shortblock and sourcing a good crank and new bearings?

Once I get the phase short block and head gasket combination requirements sorted out I'll post in here for an additional reference on the issue.

Still plenty open to thoughts, comments, and suggestions if you have them.

Thank you.

[powerofone]

I have a phase I block 2.5 with 2.2 single port heads on my every day driver. I used felpro 2.5 MLS head gaskets and make shur you use 2.2 head bolts because the 2.5 ones will reach but not thread in enough. I also have a 2.5 inch exhaust with high flow loaded cat(obdII compliant) to a magnaflow ultraflow. Also I put a short ram intake one with aem dry cone filter.I run 89 octane with no pinging and get 25 city and 29 highway and have been running this setup without any problems yet and seat of the pants difference in performance it just doesn't stop pulling up hills like the 2.2 did

[powerofone]

Oh sorry and I ran this set up for a year now with about 30,000 miles no problems

[wtdash]

Hi Lee,
My .02.

- For ~$200 you can get the torque grind on your 2.2 cams from Delta....it doesn't require EM but double-check since you're going Frankenstein.

-The latest iteration of the 2.5 Phase 1 HG fixes the issue on the 2.5 EJ25D's - should be P/N: 11044AA610

-The JECs/AUTECS green label MAF is used on the Rob Tuned EJ20G ECUs (550s + TD05)...air will not be a problem.

- Clutch: Don't know what the stock RS clutch can handle - probably find it over on RS25.com. I used an ACT HD clutch/PP w/a streetlite LW FW on my Legacy 5-speed swap. When you test drove it that's what was in there - w/the cable clutch you have (and I used) it'll take more to depress it.....but the LW FW may not be wanted during off-road/slow-going adventures??

-Also, I can recommend Bill @ Mr. Injector in Hayden...He can flow-test and clean your injectors w/new O-rings for $64 - for a set of 4.


I'm sure you know this, but just in case.....the newer Phase 2/II head/IM isn't plug-n-play w/the Phase 1. The Phase 1 IM won't fit the Phase 2 heads, and using the Phase 2 IM is a PITA to get it work w/the Phase 1 sensors and wiring...read up on Ultimatesubaru.org/forum.

But using the Phase 2 shortblock w/Phase 1 heads and IM should be fine....I'd double-check on the crank sensor and pulley/sprocket.

TD

[DLC]

Having done a medium build on my Phase II EJ251, I can chime in with a few observations:

Cobb Street Performer cams
Cobb Cold-air intake
TWE EL headers
Random HFC
Fujitsubo Legalis catback
At least two head honings (slight compression bump)

This makes a lot of power, but I was in the red with regards to how lean the car was running. With no EM I was getting terrific mileage, over 33MPG on a FULL TANK on 235 section Blizzaks, but it ultimately suffered another headgasket failure due to overheating which I attribute at least partially to how lean the mixture was.

Sounded great, and went like stink. Wish I'd dynoed it before selling/parting it out.

Something as simple as an S-AFC might be a good idea to keep in mind, but you should not need anything more for what you're after.

[skid542]

Thank you a bunch everyone for the help and input!

Hearing your examples and how well everything has been working, thank you powerofone, I went ahead and pulled the trigger on a block.

Turns out I can get a phase II EJ255 (NA) with new water pump and oil pump for $2,150. Or I can get a new EJ257 minus the water pump and oil pump for $1,950. Well I already have a brand new water pump in the garage, so I decided to get the STi block.

I've already been told by a few people that the STi block is lower compression and it's a bad idea.

However, running the math I'm getting a final compression ratio of 10.1:1 to 10.3:1 depending on whose data for headgasket thickness I use. So I figure I may sacrifice 5 hp but I'll be able to run mid grade and perhaps even regular gas. And I get an STi block in my Outback .

Delta cams is currently charge $85 per cam and I think I'm going to go with the 220 grind as I'm not going to be working the upper RPM band hard anyhow due to running EJ22E heads.

So between the increased displacement, cams, and EL headers I figure I should be around the 200chp mark without too much trouble. And I get to keep my intake manifold and avoid any of the phase I vs phase II intake manifold issues that Todd was referring to. Additionally, I think I should have a motor with a good 200k of life in it and decent resale if/when I get rid of the outback or decide to swap into a new chassis.

Todd - thanks for the input on the clutch. I think that's the way I'm going to go. Your's felt just fine to me and if it's holding your old power it'll hold mine just fine. It's also great to know about the new injector guy, I'll have to go that route and keep it local. Thanks!

Dave - It's good to know what your experience was, I was hoping you'd chime in. I'm guessing my delta cams won't be as hot as your Cobb's were and with the lower compression I should have some more safety (one of the reasons I went with the STi block).


So right now I'm waiting for my order confirmation from Primitive *also ordered my lift springs and spacer and in a few weeks I'll start putting the pieces together. I'll try to document things well and get some pictures and p/n's up for those that want to follow suit in the future.

Thank you again for the help.