Non turbo engine build

[fre3k5h0w]

Well this is a pretty big board covering first gens..nice, I love them. I got a first gen as well, seems unfortunate that I have one that is naturally aspirated because there isn't any builds or info ...well, so far as I have seen that build motors unless they have a turbo stuck to the ports. help me with threads so I don't have to trudge for a year.

[mike-tracy]

Welcome to the forums... Your intention is to keep the car non turbo right? Easiest and probably best bang for the buck is throwing a good 2.5 shortblock in there. No engine management changes, no injector swaps. Just run it and throw midgrade gas in it.
Where are you at? If you're local, you could go for a ride in my SS.

[kimokalihi]

Suspension mods are your best bet.

[Bishop]

Suspension tuning and a franken-engine. We're still working the kinks out of your but we chose a bad car to start with.

[fre3k5h0w]

Mike Tracy, I'm am not local but I would definitely let you take me for a ride, would probably have me looking for an ss or a tw . Lol..I'm sure that's what your implying.

I did figure suspension mods in there, I live in the desert so I would like to keep it at a respectable stance or have 2 types of bolt in shock/strut combos. Not a big fan of coilovers since I havent bought a set for previous cars that I liked, coils with an edfc would be ideal but cost?

I been playing with hypothetical compression builds but am by no means an engine builder, I can take a motor apart and put it back together no problem been toying mentally about frankensteining an 18e head 22e block combo with torque ground cams but the 18e motor is a bit of a red headed step child and nobody plays with them. Lol.

[fre3k5h0w]

^seems I posted this in miscellaneous..oops. if it needs to be moved...by all means. Thanks guys.

[Alphius]

If you're doing a franken-motor it's a lot better to do it with an EJ25 bottom end and EJ22 heads because you get the displacement boost and compression ratio bump and don't have to use the EJ18 heads which are even worse than EJ22 heads for flow.

I've always kind of wanted to try a EJ22/EJ25 hybrid with Delta cams. I think it would be a really fun DD engine with reasonable power.

[86BRATMAN]

Why does everyone think the ej18 has smaller combustion chambers than the ej22. It doesn't, they are the same head with different cam and rocker assemblies.

If you want a good performing na motor build an ej22e, with svx pistons, and 97-99 ej25d heads. You get the best of everything, bulletproof quick reving ej22 shortblock, factory higher comp pistons, and some of the best flowing heads we got here in the states.

[fre3k5h0w]

I would need the ecu harness and all the sensors for that type of 25d head setup wouldn't I ? Understand a little bit about it since I wanted to collect part it in my second gen and researched the holy hell out of it. So everything from type of build will still just carry over, kind of wanted to keep it obd1..don't know why, just ease of maintenance I guess.

Whatever you guys help me to decide is the better way to go I will start collecting parts for the motor and get rid of that drop link setup in the rear of my car..got links and a sway bar already, just need the control arms. So far that's on the itenerary. Since I got the car. Thanks a ton guys, you are really being helpful.

[fre3k5h0w]

86 bratman, i had thought I saw the same thing about the 18e heads I saw them without the valve covers and though what the heck! That doesn't look anything like the rockers on the 22e, but also heard that the cam profiling is pretty spicy. Wasn't sure at all just by looking at the cams that they would push the 22e valves. Most of my experience in a legacy is in 2nd and 3rd gens. But I loved this wagon so much I bought it with blown headgaskets. I couldn't believe the guy actually burned the headgaskets out of this tank motor.

[Alphius]

Why does everyone think the ej18 has smaller combustion chambers than the ej22. It doesn't, they are the same head with different cam and rocker assemblies.

If you want a good performing na motor build an ej22e, with svx pistons, and 97-99 ej25d heads. You get the best of everything, bulletproof quick reving ej22 shortblock, factory higher comp pistons, and some of the best flowing heads we got here in the states.

EJ18 heads have the same combustion chamber size but the intake/exhaust ports are worse than the EJ22 head.

That does sound like a decent N/A build, but it's a little more complicated for someone to do than just throwing an EJ25 shortblock between the factory EJ22 heads. The DOHC conversion brings its own problems into the picture.

[fre3k5h0w]

^^I'm leanin on the 22e/252 because of the big 22e valves 252 stroke apparently is longer than the 25d and from what I understand is that the ej252 runs like a 10:1 cr?

Does anyone think a port and polish in the bowls of the heads and intake ports would help flow noticeably? I work in a machine/metal fab shop, would be a first for me to do it my self and I don't want to mirror polish and cause weird issues. I had done a port job to the stock exhaust manifold for my bd and it even sounded a little different and just felt a little more free.

[86BRATMAN]

All phase 1 engines run off the same crank and cam sensors. If you were to build the I mentioned, which is also sitting in my building waiting for spring time btw, you would use the sensors, throttle body, iacv, and wiring from your existing engine and it would run perfectly fine.

The engine build is not complicated at all. Sure some people seem to have issues with a dohc swap but some people also over think simple things.

If you've got the 2 engines side by side, which you'd need to make a frankenmotor anyways, it's no big deal, everything from the ej25d, heads, manifold, and water pump tube get swapped to the ej22 shortblock. If you can change head gaskets you can build the hybrid. With the eg33 pistons, it's no different than replacing the rings, they're the same bore, same wrist pin location, same rings as the ej22. They just have a small dome instead of a dish. The dome top piston, 46.6 cc combustion chamber of the 25d head, and ej222 head gaskets give you a 10.7:1 compression ratio, correct coolant ports on the head gaskets and plug and play with your existing wiring if you do what I posted above.

The ej251/3 is the short block you're talking about above, same stroke as the 25d. They have 52mm rod journals instead of the 25d 48mm. Ej25d pistons stick out of the block by about .050" which requires the use of a thick head gasket (that's one reason they blow all they time). Where as ej251 pistons don't protrude, allowing for thinner mls gaskets with less chance to blow. The ej251 shortblock with ej22e heads is over 11:1 compression, with heads that flow for shit. Will it be a performance boost from a stock ej22e? Of course, is it the best road to take? My opinion no. If you're going to go through the trouble of building an engine why not get the most out of your time and money.

[fre3k5h0w]

That does sound like a great build and the eg33 piston swap sounds like a smart touch with that since the compression will be lowered on the Dohc/22e. I imagine it would be closer to the factory ej222 compression, which isn't bad. I just don't have a salvaged second gen available for a donor car. Want to stay sohc and try to create better flow through the 22e heads, which is why I suggested the 18e heads or p+p the 22e heads at first mostly because of cam profiling making up for the flatulant flow the same way the 22e does with its valves.

The way you explained the eg33 pistons is making me think why not just do a piston swap to the 22es block. I don't know the math or formulas on how to get the compression numbers or anything like that but I wonder if that would put the motor into valve interference.

[86BRATMAN]

I've got all the specs written down to do the compression calculations. I'll have to dig them up, I spend the first half of this past year researching and gathering parts for the build. I'm refreshing a 5mt to swap in at the same time as the engine sometime in the spring.

From memory I'm going to say 11.2-11.4:1 with stock ej22e heads but don't hold me to it. Most definitely interference, the 96/97 minor piston revision of the 22e made it interference and only bumped the comp by .2:1





This is one set of pistons I sourced to get the correct a/b sizes for my donor block. I don't have a picture of the ones that came out of the engine, but they were 90-95 style like yours. I can get some side by side of the two Wednesday if you would like to see them.

There is definitely room for improvement in the 22e heads, how much I can't really say as I've never done anything more than port smoothing on a pair. If you haven't done so yet, do a lot of reading on porting heads. And remember, bigger isn't always better in this type of environment.

[fre3k5h0w]

Wow that is quite a bump just with pistons, I would love to see a pic of them side by side.they look like some Japanese Honda typeR pistons I used to have.lol. one of my blocks have ridiculous mileage on it @292k that compression ratio will destroy the bearings probably. The other one has 160k or thereabouts and hasn't been exposed to bad headgaskets for who knows how long. I have that lesser mileage block in my spare bedroom all cleaned up and ready for some heads of some sort.

How much cash did you shell for those pistons? If I can even find one of those motors to snatch them out I will definitely pick some of those up. Would it matter which cylinders I pick them out of? Mich more of a question where do you think my power band will start on the stock tune? Still redline at 6.5? Streetable? I came out of the Honda scene about 5 years ago so I know about high compression but these motor have waay different dynamics and nature... Then obd1..so idk.

If I p+p anything it will just be the ex manifold getting ported, and a good blend to entrances to the valves, I also had thought about blending the inside of the intake manifold runners from the entry to the exit but maybe getting little crazy with it.

[86BRATMAN]

In person the pistons are more of a cross between b18c1 and b16a2 lol. I played in the Honda scene for a while about 10 years ago. I got the pistons from different people on different forums. They were used which I wasn't a big fan of, but they were measured and checked over to make sure all clearances were withing spec. I got one set of 6 for $45, then another for about $60. If you look closely you can see the pistons are marked L and R, there is also a size "grade" on them, as well as each block that should be matched for best chance of correct clearance without any serious machine work. So you would need at least 2 L and 2 R pistons with sizes that match the block you want to put them in. That's the part that made me have to buy multiple pistons, my block was all B bores.

The power band will be more determined by cam choice than compression. I'm sure they will be more of it everywhere through the range, but I'm still going to have stock ej25d cams in it for a while. I want to do delta cams, but its not in the budget just yet.

I'll report back in with the side by side a little later.

[fre3k5h0w]

B bores? Say I find a eg33 motor to donate its pistons, does that mean there is different phases like there are with the ej series? From what I understood is that the rings are the same size and pistons are same diameter (I'm guessing this is correct for new pistons?) No problem if I have to get rings for them though probably a good rule of thumb to do so any way right? When you measured these did they vary a lot. Just wondering now because it doesn't sound like I cant pop those right out of the h6 and directly into my 22e.

I forget I'm not in an obd2 ecu any more, I originally wanted to just send my cams for the torque grind at delta. But no longer on the itenerary, may be dangerous with these pistons if the cr will be that high. Is there any tuning options for n/a motors after this kind of work? I would probably have to take it to a local tuning shop I assume.

[mike-tracy]

Now you wanna tune it too? . Yes a standalone would do the trick. Possibly one of those you wire yourself, which are cheaper. I've read from people who've used them, these older ecus learn their way around piggybacks so that's not a good option imo.

[fre3k5h0w]

Well yeah, if I could..sorry if my questions are ridiculous..I have literally no experience doing these sort of things with these cars and motors beyond repairs to a stock motor and bolt ons. Mentioned I'm not an engine builder i think. Not being able to find a topic for the needed info I decided to start a thread of my own and have some insight already. .

[mike-tracy]

I'm just teasing. Of course you want to tune it, to get the best power, reliability and mpg. ;b

For the money you'll be spending on na tuning and engine building, I say cobble together a turbo setup. For the same money you can get far more power.


Here's an example http://bbs.legacycentral.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=48934

[86BRATMAN]

Oh, well, tuning, that's fun too lol. I'm also building a jumper harness out of a spare ecu, and a wrx ecu connector cut, and going to run a wrx ecu open source tuned. But that's another story altogether.

One could always run a pp6 or something of that sort also.

Subaru uses different "grades" for their bores, meaning there are different size pistons even though the ej22 and eg33 have 96.9mm bores. Earlier years have "a" "b" and "c" each with slightly different sizes to them. The specs are online or in the fsm for your car. I didn't want to take any chances so I picked up enough pistons to have 4 that matched my bores perfectly to spec. I also used new 90-98 ej22 npr pistons rings. I'm in the middle of an argument with myself about splitting the block and putting new bearings in it even though it was a 75k mile motor. But if I go back into the thing that far it probably won't go back together high compression...

And that would defeat the purpose of my build lol.

[86BRATMAN]

Btw, I didn't forget about the pictures, I just couldn't find where the heck I put the ej22 pistons. Will keep looking as time allows.

[Legacy777]

I think you need to sit down and figure out your budget and power goals. The Delta cams might be a good stop-gap measure for reasonable cost, and if you want more power you could save up for a turbo swap.

BTW, I renamed your thread and moved it to the engine forum.

[fre3k5h0w]

^...nice, thanks josh. I totally need to figure out what this is going to cost and what parts are available..been on th phone a lot with various people and companies around here with part outs and salvagd cars. Kind of got a mode to this build but securing info is the first step in this madness for me.

No sweat about the pictures bratman..lol, I got time on my side if nothing else. Great info about the boring differences and quite the heads up. As mentioned up there by josh about cam grinds, if nothing else ill just do that.I have heard thats a great thing to do for a cheap upgrade.