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 Post subject: Jamal's blanket suspension recommendations
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:23 pm 
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It seems like I've been seeing a lot of "what should I buy" threads, and so I thought I'd make this as a baseline for people to start with.

Before we get started, I need to talk about tires and alignment. Without good tires, and without a good alignment, all the stuff I'm about to list is completely useless. Tires are the only thing actually in contact with the road, so they determine how fast you can turn or stop. A good alignment, in my opinion, means a healthy amount of front negative camber and 0 toe. You also want more camber in the front than the rear. How much depends on what kind of driving you do and a bunch of other things. On my specific car with my parts and the way I like it to handle, I am up to -2.5 degrees in the front, which is probably as much as anyone should ever have on a street driven car.

Why do I recommend a lot of negative camber?

When the car turns, the body rolls and the outside suspension compresses. This causes the tire to lean over towards the outside. That causes the contact patch to go all to hell and the cornering work is done by the sidewall and outside edge. That's bad. More negative camber means more of the tread is in contact with the road in a corner, which means more grip.

For more about why this stuff is important, check out the swaybar faq:
http://bbs.legacycentral.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=34702

Now that we've come that far, it's time buy parts that keep the tire in better contact with the road.

step 1
When it comes to getting a performance oriented suspension, struts are very important. If you get some quality struts (or dampers, to get technical) and a set of compatible springs, the car is going to perform and often ride much better. Good struts simply do a better job at controlling suspension and body movements to keep the tire against the road. Since we are on a 1st gen Legacy forum and struts don't perform very well after about 60k miles, it's generally smart to replace them, even if it's just OEM equivalent stuff.

step 2
Swaybars. Swaybars are important because they're very effective at limiting body roll which improves the tire contact patch which improves grip, and generally make the car more responsive. Once again I will refer everyone to the swaybar thread

Also just because swaybars are "step 2" it doesn't mean you have to buy new struts and springs first. It's perfectly acceptable to add some swaybar right off the bat, but if you get too carried away they can be too stiff for the rest of the suspension.

step 3
Now we get to "tertiary" products. Those are things like bushings and ALKs and endlinks and the like. They're all pretty great things to have but usually aren't good first suspension modifications to a car since a good set of struts is going to make the biggest difference. However, for a nearly 30 year old car, new suspension bushings are probably a really good idea.


Keep in mind that I stuck with recommendations for buying new, off the shelf parts that are a direct fit for our cars. Once you get into used parts and stuff from other models the general recommendations don't work so well.

fitment note
Very little of the following will be found listing 90-94 Legacy as a fitment, and finding aftermarket upgrades for these cars is getting harder and harder. That said, there is still some stuff around for the 93-01 impreza, and that will mostly all bolt up. In fact, the 92-94 legacy struts and top mounts are the same front and rear, but springs do differ a bit. The impreza is a little lighter and the legacy wagon has stiffer and taller rear springs. The other thing is, if you have a 90-91, you'll need to go to the 92-94/GC rear top mounts for a lot of this stuff to work.

There are some other considerations for wagons because they have fat asses. You pretty much have to use wagon-specific springs or coilover sleeves if you want things to work right. Also most of this only applies to AWD cars.

__________

Stage 1: Basic OEM replacement

KYB GR2/excel G struts. These are the best option for an oem strut replacement. You might be able to get a cheaper strut on rockauto at your parts store but the excel-g is a decent part and kyb one of the oem manufacturers of struts. A set of these will make your car ride and handle much better.

$300 range, works with FWD.

The next step up would be to pair these with a set of springs. Eibach and H&R both make a set of springs for the Impreza, or used to anyway. Eibach shows "not available" on their website. King I believe also has lowering, standard height, and lift springs that will fit.
__________

Budget higher performance setup. The next step up from the basic kybs is a nicer strut. You can get an AGX in impreza fitment, which is KYB's strut with and adjustment knob. Koni also makes inserts, but not all legacy and impreza struts are made by the same manufacturer so you have to make sure your housings are compatible with the inserts. Add some coilover sleeves and you have a nice set of suspension for around $1000 that gives you adjustable ride height and damping.

For $1000 or less, though, you can now get a set of complete coilovers that fits these cars. Some stuff (bc, megan, raceland...) I would not recommend. The nice thing is, you still don't need to spend $2000.

Tein, despite some trash talking I might have done previously, has released a more street friendly, budget friendly suspension system called the Street Advance Z. These go for around $700 and work with the stock top mounts.

ST suspension, which are a lower cost version of KW, offer their coilovers in an Impreza fitment as well. The ST X coilover is essentially a KW variant 1. These are a touch more, in the $900 range, and also use the stock top mounts. KW's Variant 1 is also available for these cars, and uses a stainless steel strut housing to reduce corrosion. But this is basically the only difference and they cost around twice as much.
__________

IF you're looking for nicer suspension and willing to spend more, these are your main options:

ST XT-A
KW Variant 3
Bilstein PSS9

DO not buy cheap no-name coilovers. They are crap, mainly because the dampers are crap, they have NO travel, and generally use lower quality materials. Here's some info about why you don't want to do that:

Exhibit A

Nasioc coilover information thread

Another reason I'm so bitchy about cheap coilovers

Good coilovers and why they're better. This thread has tons of good tech information in it.

__________

Okay onto step two-

Swaybars

Swaybars are very good to have. They let you use lower spring rates to maintain a certain amount of body roll. They are also a very good way to balance the handling of the car. If you're going to be on rough roads or rally-xing, smaller bars in the 18-20mm range tend to be better. For track/auto-x/performance street use, you'll want bigger bars in the 22-24mm or larger range.

My personal preference for swaybars is to keep them evenly sized front or rear. That gives the following options:

-turbo 18mm rear swaybar if you don't already have one ($50)
-Legacy 2.5GT (or WRX wagon for turbos) 20mm F and Whiteline 20mm or 22mm R swaybars ($220)
-Whiteline 22mm FSB and 22mm RSB ($350)

The 22mm rear bar is the largest available for our cars. There are more options than that and they can be seen here:

It's also not a bad idea to do endlinks (~$200), urethane swaybar bushings (~$30), and 04+ impreza rear mounts ($20, requires different bushings) while you're at it. They all make sure the swaybar is working at it's maximum efficiency.

__________


Tophats:

Once you get to "stage three," You need to go to better top hats or camber plates. For top mounts there is group N, which are OEM with harder rubber. Whiteline also has a cool offset top that will add quite a bit of caster and a bit of camber. For camber plates, Ground Control, RCE, and MSI all make great ones.

If you're at all concerned with good handling, camber plates are great to have regardless of the setup. With our cars, more front negative camber is pretty much always going to be beneficial. Plus you can use them on almost any other Subaru with any other struts/springs, so it's not like they'll go to waste if you change you car or suspension.

_________

Other stuff
I recommend all of the following parts for people looking to spend money to improve handling

-Whiteline ALK - one of my favorite mods ever
-Whiteline RCA adjusters - necessary with a lowered car
-Subframe lock bolts - these keep the rear subframe from moving around under load.
-replacement lateral link bushings (group n or TiC)
-Steering rack bushings ($25) - cheap and really improve steering feel
-Any other misc harder bushings you want to spend money on

Well, hopefully I'm off to a helpful and informative start. I'll fill in some blanks and add a quick description of the different options later.

_________

Oh, and for reference, here's my setup:
-04 STi suspension with slotted struts and camber bolts for a decent alignment
-Racecomp Engineering black springs
-Whiteline Com-C offset front tophats
-Whiteline 22mm adjustable front swaybar
-Whiteline 22mm adjustable rsb
-Kartboy endlinks
-Whiteline ALK
-Steering rack bushings
-Kartboy race outrigger bushings
-kartboy subframe lock bolts
-Turn in Concepts rear suspension bushing package

I will probably get some good coilovers next because I don't really like the STI struts that much anymore.

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Last edited by jamal on Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:15 am, edited 37 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:35 pm 
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awesome post. very good information.


can this be stickied? just so we don't keep getting the same questions asked...

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:07 pm 
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why would a blanket need suspension upgrades?

what are you doing with this blanket?

seriously, thanks for posting.

i have heard very good things about the Hotbits suspension over on Special Stage and i have a friend that uses them on his Ice racer/rallyx impreza. they seem to work very well. they are in the 1500-1700 range.

there are also a couple shops in the PNW that make custom coil overs for rally that are very sturdy and run around 2000.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:24 pm 
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My blanket is a jdm touge doriftu machine.


Thanks for bringing up rally stuff because I completely left out any mention of it. Pretty much none of the stuff I listed would be any good for rally or rallyx.

I've also heard good about the hotbits. My concern with coilovers is just as much of quality as it is with serviceability. I think most people don't realize they need to be rebuilt, and on a yearly basis if they're seeing track days or competitive use.

Addtionally, if you're spending $1500+ on suspension, you shouldn't buy it solely based on some post on the internet. Speak with vendors who actually support their products and can supply shock dyno plots and tell you how to have them rebuilt. So maybe a lot of that type of information doesn't belong here. I guess I should expand on the "why you should consider coilovers" question.

It would be nice to outline rally setups in the same manner though. Inverted STi struts with some tall springs seems to be a good start, and I don't think I'd want to go down a rally stage on AGXes or Konis.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:01 pm 
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they are a bit to blanket.
there are no tokicos list for 92-94 awd sedans
there aren't AGXs for a few of the other models

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:19 pm 
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But that stuff is available for 93-01 Imprezas, and the fitment is exactly the same.

Although that does remind me of something I left out:

To use any of this stuff on 90-91s, it's best or in some cases necessary to swap to the 92-94 rear strut tops.


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 Post subject: Re: Jamal's blanket suspension recommendations
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:53 am 
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jamal wrote:
It seems like I've been seeing a lot of "what should I buy" threads, and so I thought I'd make this as a baseline for people to start with. As much as I hate to use the term "stage," it's probably the best way to go about this.

Keep in mind that I stuck with recommendations for buying new, off the shelf parts that are a direct fit for our cars. Once you get into used parts and stuff from other models the general recommendations don't work so well.

Stage 1: Cheap OEM replacement

KYB GR2 struts
$300

Stage 2: Slightly better than OEM replacement

KYB GR2 struts, Whiteline control springs
$600

Stage 3: Budget higher performance setup

KYB AGX struts, whiteline control springs
KYB AGX struts, ground control sleeves
Same as above with tokico struts
$900

Stage 4: Higher performance, higher cost setup (and my favorite of the group)

Koni Yellow inserts, ground control sleeves, bump extenders.
$1200

Stage 5: I want to spend lots of money and go to the track

RCE tarmac II coilovers
KW variant 3 coilovers
Ohlins Sportline coilovers
$1700+

I promise that no lesser coilover is going to be better for anything than Konis and ground control sleeves. That's why I left the e-bay specials out.

Tophats:

Once you get to stage three, I highly recommend going with group N top hats or camber plates. My favorite camber plates are the RCE and Whiteline Max-C plates. If you aren't using an adjustable height spring you should stick to those two because others will raise the ride height.

Other stuff
I recommend all of the following parts for people looking to spend money to improve handling

-turbo 18mm rear swaybar if you don't already have one ($50)
-Legacy GT 20mm F and Whiteline 18-22 R swaybars ($220)
OR Whiteline 22mm FSB and 20-22 RSB ($350)
-Kartboy endlinks ($180)

-Whiteline ALK ($200)
-Whiteline RCA adjusters ($175)
-Subframe lock bolts ($30)
-New bushings ($275)

Well, hopefully I'm off to a helpful and informative start. I'll fill in some blanks and add a quick description of the different options later.


That's a pretty good list to pull from..

A few things to add to the list that we've used with good results.

-"Stage 2" H&R, Eibach, Crucial Racing or COBB springs also work well for street. OBS or King springs for Rally X, light gravel duty (rallied on it before). Latter 2 choices raise ride height .5"-1.5 depending on spring. You'd be suprised how many people have rallied successfully on GR2s or AGXs (even stock) w/ better springs. Albeit, knowing that they should carry spares or plan on frequent replacement. WRX, RS, OBS, OB or STi struts can also be used for minimal cost.

-Instead of the sleeves, try to save for proper coilovers.. or stick with stage 2 + Group N top hats or camber plates. You can acheive better handling with lowering springs and the KYBs, Tokicos, or Konis than with a sleeve. We've tried all of the sets mentioned with good results.

-For the those looking for a good street/track coilover The Bilstein PSS9 and H&R Sports are both good tarmac coilovers in the $1500-1800 range. Very stable at speed in the turns. Not too harsh on the street. Plan on maintaining them if you want them to last.

-Another few items to consider as well are lower "H" braces, strut tower braces, aluminum control arms, and adjustable rear lateral links. The lats are nice for more camber in the rear. The braces help with structural rigidity. A roll cage will also help your handling as well.

-For the rally peeps, we build a solid, proven Bilstein gravel coilover suspension for BCs, GCs, and GDs. This system is designed to bridge the gap between OEM/KYB ($300) and DMS or RSSP ($5k+). Custom machined bodies, laser cut ears/gussets, powdercoated (for gravel protection), Group N tophats, aluminum lock nuts/spring perches, H&R springs, and coil wraps (to keep them clean). These struts have been well tested with good results in rallies around the country. They list for $2200. We also offer rebuilds for $75 a corner, and parts in stock.

http://www.specialstage.com/photopost/s ... ?photo=474

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:26 pm 
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Outstanding job!

I had a Ground Control/Koni Yellows (adjustable dampening) setup on my '01 Focus ZX3 and I absolutely loved it. It would stick to the road like it was on skateboard grip tape. :-D

Then for some reason I decided that extremely good handling was over rated and installed an airbag suspension. :roll: Fun as hell to play with and make random people wonder what happened to you car because it just fell down (tagged the air valve switches to my Clifford alarm). I did really miss hitting corners at break-neck speeds shortly after that.

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 Post subject: Re: Jamal's blanket suspension recommendations
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:38 am 
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Legacy294 wrote:
That's a pretty good list to pull from..

A few things to add to the list that we've used with good results.

-"Stage 2" H&R, Eibach, Crucial Racing or COBB springs also work well for street. OBS or King springs for Rally X, light gravel duty (rallied on it before). Latter 2 choices raise ride height .5"-1.5 depending on spring. You'd be suprised how many people have rallied successfully on GR2s or AGXs (even stock) w/ better springs. Albeit, knowing that they should carry spares or plan on frequent replacement. WRX, RS, OBS, OB or STi struts can also be used for minimal cost.

I don't like any of those springs because of how far they lower the car and what happens to bump travel and the camber curve. The cobbs especially are regarded on a level with s-techs on teh nabisco.

Additionally, I have yet to see king springs for sale in the US. Or maybe scorpion subaru used to carry them. The one person I have ever seen with them went to Australia and brought them back in his carry on (rally370)
Quote:
-Instead of the sleeves, try to save for proper coilovers.. or stick with stage 2 + Group N top hats or camber plates. You can acheive better handling with lowering springs and the KYBs, Tokicos, or Konis than with a sleeve. We've tried all of the sets mentioned with good results.

A decent strut and sleeves runs $1000. A decent coilover costs $1800+
$1000 is a lot to spend on the suspension of a 15 year old car. I would really not recommend coilovers unless you had the cash and were going to be competing. Even then, $1800 coilovers are going to only be marginally better, if at all, than konis + sleeves.

Now, why are you saying a lowering spring with kybs is going to be better than konis and ground controls? You get a much, much, much better damper along with higher spring rates.
Quote:
-For the those looking for a good street/track coilover The Bilstein PSS9 and H&R Sports are both good tarmac coilovers in the $1500-1800 range. Very stable at speed in the turns. Not too harsh on the street. Plan on maintaining them if you want them to last.
Yes
Quote:
-Another few items to consider as well are lower "H" braces, strut tower braces, aluminum control arms, and adjustable rear lateral links. The lats are nice for more camber in the rear. The braces help with structural rigidity. A roll cage will also help your handling as well.

maybe. There are plenty of things I would do first. We're getting into the "I want to spend thousands race-prepping a car" discussion and I'd like to stay away from that.
Quote:
-For the rally peeps, we build a solid, proven Bilstein gravel coilover suspension for BCs, GCs, and GDs. This system is designed to bridge the gap between OEM/KYB ($300) and DMS or RSSP ($5k+). Custom machined bodies, laser cut ears/gussets, powdercoated (for gravel protection), Group N tophats, aluminum lock nuts/spring perches, H&R springs, and coil wraps (to keep them clean). These struts have been well tested with good results in rallies around the country. They list for $2200. We also offer rebuilds for $75 a corner, and parts in stock.

http://www.specialstage.com/photopost/s ... ?photo=474


Neato


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:27 pm 
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Coilover sleeves can drop the car up to 1.75 inches which has the same effect as lowering springs on the camber/damper/bump.. You get more spring choices in a 2.5 ID spring, but the majority of guys that run them dump them to the ground. Hence the reasoning for going with a lowering spring and H&Rs, Whitelines, whatever (not Tein S tech) with a replacement strut. There are also struts that are designed to work ideally with a lowering spring. I've built, driven, and ridden in hundreds of different Subarus with all sorts suspension mods on street, track, and gravel..Just not a big fan of the sleeves, have seen some issues with them in the past, welds breaking, struts failing/bending, etc. If someone hunted around, they could find a good used set of H&Rs or PSS9s in the $1k range. Would not classify the ride w/ sleeves as "much, much, much better".. How many different suspensions have you driven on your car (or others) to base that on? How many Subarus have you owned/modded/tested?

$1500-1800 is not that much for a decent coilover suspension compared to some others. How about ZZYZX ($5k), DMS ($5500), or Ohlins ($2500-8k)? Those are all top notch, but very spendy units.

Rally370 (Chris Wilson) was rallying my old Leggy rally car.. I had the KINGs on the car first, from a source in the US, prior to him getting another set from AU. That was from my recommendation, he was very new to Subies at that point. Later he ran '04 STi suspension with no issues. Those KING springs are great on gravel with a stock type strut. We also had them w/AGXs on our Legacy Turbo rally car, and they worked well all things considering.

All of the braces, strut bars, lats, etc. are things (like sway bars) that suspension junkies (not just racers) wind up wanting or needing at some point during their upgrade path. Not trying to start anything to do with "how to spend thousands race prepping a car".. Just speaking from experience. Anything that stiffens the chassis will also help the handling of the car, period. These are common upgrades in the suspension dept. (as well as bushings) If you knew me personally, aside of reading my posts, you'd understand that I don't try and upsell anything.. We build cars to suit our client's budgets, whether its $100 or $10k..Everyone has to start somewhere.:) Most of our clients are grassroots types that start with a pretty basic inexpensive Legacy or Impreza shell, and go from there modding it.

Just trying to help here.. ;-)

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:23 am 
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My reasoning for the sleeves is that a whiteline/h&r etc is not nearly as stiff as you can go on a d-spec or koni. From what I've read you can put 600lb/in springs on a koni if you so desire.

I didn't say the ride is much, much better with sleeves, I said the koni is better than AGXes or D-specs or pretty much anything else until you get to the really expensive stuff.

I don't want to get too in-depth with fancy coilovers because it's not something you should buy because you read about it on the internet. I want to direct this towards the people who come across this site and are constantly posting "hey my suspension is old, can I use X parts?" etc. Not really the people looking for a $5000 competition coilover. zyzzx coilovers, by the way, are essentially koni inserts with a coil sleeve (the double adjustable ones and a custom built housing).

I know you're trying to help. I appreciate, need, and want help, and there are a lot of blanks to fill in.

Additionally here are some useful links I'll try to fit in somewhere:

http://www.se-r.net/suspension/shock_tech.html
http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets6.html
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthr ... ?t=1262596
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthr ... ?t=1121958
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthr ... did=439463


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:48 am 
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still no mention of how to raise the car.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:56 am 
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So, jamal, would say that KYB's + Eibach springs would be a good budget start to a decent street/autox setup?

Also, Where did you get all this knowledge?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:38 pm 
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Yes I don't see any big problems with that setup. it should ride and handle well.


I just read a lot. Especially websites and books about chassis setup and suspension. I suppose I'll end up working in a related field at some point.


To raise the car, king springs, ground control sleeves, outback struts, and forester struts are all options. I'll try to come up with a few more specific setups later when I have time. Legacy294 could probably tell you more about that.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 8:32 pm 
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Yes Barrett is correct. I ran GR2's with King springs and bent the struts on the first rally in CA(rough stages) then swapped to 04 STI struts which I wedged(see my link for photos) and fitted 250LBS King springs all round. The struts did not bend but did go off a little on stage due to insert valving. I believe Barrett does a nice rally insert now for these struts? For the money the STI set up is fab.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:02 am 
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hey jamal how is that sti setup treating you. I was thinking of ditching my wagon springs/agx setup for an '04 STI takeoff setup since I have the '91 rear hats lying around still. the sti rates and height sound pretty good to me.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:10 am 
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Hey Jamal, what part # should I use for ground control coilover springs with my (94 spec) AGX's? Keep in mind these will need to bolt onto a 91' SS.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:56 am 
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Another "Hey Jamal" question. Thanks for the write up and links BTW...

I've got AGX's and HR sport springs. I do track days and have been experiencing understeer and in photos too much body rolll. My plan is to keep the AGX's and get the GC conversion kit and much stiffer springs (the HR's are something like 190/170). I don't know HOW stiff to go to but I'm guessing 250/200 or something like that.

Here's the question: The set up I have now is pretty harsh. I'm getting a ton of vibration and noise (on expansion joints) etc. and I thought I'd just live with it but I'm trying to figure out if it's just the AGX's and the lack of rebound or whatever that makes them less-good than the Koni inserts???

I mean if I "spring " for the Koni's (with much harder spring rates) what exactly would I feel/experience in the cars handling over the AGX's?

BTW, I also have Group N strut tops. I'm getting an explosive "pow" when I hit an expansion joint. I'm running the AGX's hard in front and light in the rear. Again to get the back to be more lively/eliminate understeer.

Thanks in advance for help/insight.

Cheers,

AW

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93SS 5MT White, TD05-16G, TMIC, 3"Turboback, Magnaflow, Alu Rad, H&R Sports, AGX struts, F/R STBs, Whiteline Sways, ALK+Endlinks, Odyssey 925, AC delete, Evo8 Recaros, Sparco 4p, 3.9 LSD, Hellas+air horns, IPD short throw, 99RSrims, s03's


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:12 am 
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206er wrote:
hey jamal how is that sti setup treating you. I was thinking of ditching my wagon springs/agx setup for an '04 STI takeoff setup since I have the '91 rear hats lying around still. the sti rates and height sound pretty good to me.


I like it a lot, but would like to go with stiffer rates and a more refined damper eventually (like konis or a nice coilover). The only downfall is the lack of front negative camber (have -1.3), even after I milled my struts. I'm very, very tempted to buy camber plates since I'd like 2+ but ski season is coming and I need some new gear.

I probably wouldn't run it if I were you since it will cause a really saggy rear end on a wagon from what I've seen.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:22 am 
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Adam West wrote:
Another "Hey Jamal" question. Thanks for the write up and links BTW...

I've got AGX's and HR sport springs. I do track days and have been experiencing understeer and in photos too much body rolll. My plan is to keep the AGX's and get the GC conversion kit and much stiffer springs (the HR's are something like 190/170). I don't know HOW stiff to go to but I'm guessing 250/200 or something like that.

Here's the question: The set up I have now is pretty harsh. I'm getting a ton of vibration and noise (on expansion joints) etc. and I thought I'd just live with it but I'm trying to figure out if it's just the AGX's and the lack of rebound or whatever that makes them less-good than the Koni inserts???

I mean if I "spring " for the Koni's (with much harder spring rates) what exactly would I feel/experience in the cars handling over the AGX's?

BTW, I also have Group N strut tops. I'm getting an explosive "pow" when I hit an expansion joint. I'm running the AGX's hard in front and light in the rear. Again to get the back to be more lively/eliminate understeer.

Thanks in advance for help/insight.

Cheers,

AW


#1. Those springs are bordering on too low so your camber curve isn't ideal. That's causing some of the understeer.

#2. The fronts are set too hard which is causing the rough ride and contributing to understeer.

#3. The Konis have much better low speed characteristics so they're going to offer a smoother but better controlled ride. Additionally they should all be matched together better than the AGXes. They'll also be better at controlling a stiffer spring. I refuse to believe a sub ~$1800 coilover will perform better than konis with GC sleeves.

#4. Take what I say with a grain of salt; I still have a lot to learn about this stuff.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:49 am 
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Grain of salt, always...<grin>

Not sure I understand #1. The 1.5 inch lower of the HR springs is approaching the limit of the travel on the AGX's? How much more travel is available with the Koni's?

This is important b/c I want the car even lower with the GG/AGX set up...

Or so I planned.

Thanks again,

AW

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93SS 5MT White, TD05-16G, TMIC, 3"Turboback, Magnaflow, Alu Rad, H&R Sports, AGX struts, F/R STBs, Whiteline Sways, ALK+Endlinks, Odyssey 925, AC delete, Evo8 Recaros, Sparco 4p, 3.9 LSD, Hellas+air horns, IPD short throw, 99RSrims, s03's


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:01 am 
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I would not run stiff springs on agx's. I blew one to shit within about 1000 miles of not too hard driving. didnt buy em from a dealer so a warrantee is out of the question. I spent about $400 on those, konis are not a whole lot more and are a way better strut. I'd say gr-2's on the low end, then konis, skip the agx's.
jamal I do love the stock rear 190lb wagon springs, I think they would be good on a sedan too if you ran wrx or SS springs or something like that in front. If I get a good deal on an Sti setup I may bite though.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:35 am 
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Yeah, not only is 1.5" lower riding stock bump stops, when the suspension compresses you lose negative camber due to the angle of the control arm.

Three things happen:

1. riding the bumpstops means skyrocketing spring rates plus you're out of travel. That means the strut can't do it's job and the car won't stick as well.
2. The tire leans outward, so bye bye negative camber (which means bye bye grip).
3. Roll center drops, which means MORE body roll due to the longer roll couple moment arm.

The roll center is the point about which the car rolls in a corner. The roll couple is the lateral force through the center of gravity about the roll center. So when you drop the roll center, it's getting farther away from the center of gravity, which means more leverage for body roll.

In conclusion, lowering the car too much (more than an inch) actually increases understeer and reduces grip.



Here is a good nasioc explanation of how the whole deal works:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthr ... ?t=1267918

different spring, same issue.

Also this touches on the subject:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthr ... ?t=1377606


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:02 am 
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Ok. Interesting. I've got rear camber adjust bolts and didn't have any problems getting the alignment I wanted. I'll post my specs later and you can tell me what you think...

Wonder if I got the GC kit I could run the AGX's and then use it again with the Konis. They have you order per the strut you run...

http://www.ground-control-store.com/pro ... I=85/CA=25

Thanks for the input. My world is rocking!

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93SS 5MT White, TD05-16G, TMIC, 3"Turboback, Magnaflow, Alu Rad, H&R Sports, AGX struts, F/R STBs, Whiteline Sways, ALK+Endlinks, Odyssey 925, AC delete, Evo8 Recaros, Sparco 4p, 3.9 LSD, Hellas+air horns, IPD short throw, 99RSrims, s03's


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:01 am 
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It has nothing to do with the static alignment numbers; it's what happens to the alignment when you go around a corner and the suspension compresses.

Yes you could keep the sleeves, but you can also run higher rates more comfortably on the konis.

Also I need to stress that you actually call ground control about this and discuss what you'll be doing. I need to read up on travel and spring rates and lengths before I can make any such suggestions. The guy there (Mark I think), really knows his stuff and drives a Subaru.

But basically, the stiffer the spring, the less travel you need. So with stiffer, linear rate springs, the springs can unseat at full droop. So I'm not clear on the lengths that are appropriate for different rates. stretchsje on nasioc knows more about it and has posted threads on the subject if you search his name.


Last edited by jamal on Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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