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 Post subject: Started with a delay engaging D, now it doesnt engage
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 7:11 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:27 pm
Posts: 37
Hi guys!

my 93 automatic FWD legacy is having a transmission problem that it is getting worse

here the case:
year ago it started with a delay engaging D, now it doesnt (It feels like if it were in 4th or 3rd all the time)
you turn on the car and when shifting from P to any forward speed, it took from 5 to 10 seconds to grab it, after that, then you had to rev up a little to "help" it to grab.
BUT , when I mention "5-10 seconds to grab, in that time the car feels like it is on 3rd or 4th gear because if you rev it over 2k the car moves a little THEN it grabs the right gear (I am talking for starting from stand still).

each day taking longer and longer

since 3 days ago, the transmission does not grab any of the low gear, if you go highways the cars behave very well, like nothing is wrong but if you stop and want to start to move, its like if the transmission were in 3rd or 4th.
my mom has told me that also when decelerating, it feels some rough knocks (like downshifting but harder).


What could it be what should I do what should I test?

I am probably missing some info, but any thing you need to know so you could help me better, please just ask it, I will answer it immediately and with details, anything you want, any test you need me to perform

I prefer doing it that way because the car has a long history of very bad mechanic practices and to tell you the whole history would take 2 pages
(including from the dealer , for example was until today that I discovered that a weird noise that had the car just when I pick up at the dealer, was the timing belt being extremely tightened, I asked several time about that noise, that that is not normal and they insisted that that's the normal "Subaru sound"....)

I already have purchased new oil filter, seal and the o ring, but I just want some guidance before changing it, many ones have told me that that problem could go away with a simple fluid change, the fluid the car has in its transmission is about 7yo


tomorrow (well.. within 9 hours) I am going to check the shift lock solenoid (the device that unlock the shift selector when you depress the brake pedal) which is not working properly.


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 Post subject: Re: Started with a delay engaging D, now it doesnt engage
PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 3:00 am 
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Where are you located?

Does the power light flash 16 times at start up? Have you checked the TCU for codes?

www.surrealmirage.com/subaru/trans.html

If there's no power light flashing on startup, I'm not sure you'll find anything, but it'd be good to check.

How many miles are on the car? When's the last time you checked and changed the transmission fluid? To properly check the transmission fluid, warm up the transmission by driving several miles, park on a level surface, turn off all the accessories so the engine is at a normal idle, slowly cycle the gear selector from P to 1 and back to P. Leave the engine running and then check the transmission fluid against the "Hot" Full and Low marks. The fluid should be red/pink in color and not smell burnt.

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1990 Legacy (AWD, 6MT, & EJ22T Swap)
1997 Impreza OBS

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 Post subject: Re: Started with a delay engaging D, now it doesnt engage
PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 3:01 am 
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Does shift light indicator in the dash change from P to D or another gear when you move the gear selector?

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1990 Legacy (AWD, 6MT, & EJ22T Swap)
1997 Impreza OBS

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 Post subject: Re: Started with a delay engaging D, now it doesnt engage
PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 1:21 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:27 pm
Posts: 37
Legacy777 wrote:
Does shift light indicator in the dash change from P to D or another gear when you move the gear selector?



Thank you so much for assisting me in this...
you are the only light I have ha to figure it our about this

yes the shift light moves through all the gears, if the shift is in P the light is in P, If it is in D from P it illuminates all the gears in between


Last edited by maxdrive3 on Wed Oct 22, 2014 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Started with a delay engaging D, now it doesnt engage
PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 1:22 pm 
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Posts: 37
Legacy777 wrote:
Where are you located?

Does the power light flash 16 times at start up? Have you checked the TCU for codes?

http://www.surrealmirage.com/subaru/trans.html

If there's no power light flashing on startup, I'm not sure you'll find anything, but it'd be good to check.

How many miles are on the car? When's the last time you checked and changed the transmission fluid? To properly check the transmission fluid, warm up the transmission by driving several miles, park on a level surface, turn off all the accessories so the engine is at a normal idle, slowly cycle the gear selector from P to 1 and back to P. Leave the engine running and then check the transmission fluid against the "Hot" Full and Low marks. The fluid should be red/pink in color and not smell burnt.


I am in the dominican republic (the world of the worst mechanic practice in the word (and i am being serious about this it is even in a car magazine statistic)
Years ago the power light use to come on randomly, sometimes use to light and to stay lighted, sometimes just at switch on and off when start
and 2 years ago it flashed 16 times (at the same time the car stalled, my mom told me that when parked at the mall, i asked her to record with its phone the power light then in home i count it and was 16 flashes.

from that time (approximately) the car started with delayed 1st gear

i have checked the codes (yesterday) following the "surrealmirage" steps and now the power light does not come on, like if everything is ok.

The car has 159k miles on it.
the transmission fluid was changed when a transmission changed 7 years and 5 months ago (it was changed by a problem I am aware, the hand brake got damaged and the war was parked in a hill for 5 years holding its weight in P)
Never changed the fluid from that time and the car was run for only 14k miles in 7 years (the car is used mainly for short trips)

i did a fluy replacement yesterday i did it like "ericthecarguy" recommend me in its video (with oil pan removal and filter changed) WITHOUT the transmission treatment, only the oil.

The fluid that came out of the vehicle was unoxigenated blood red and about the smell.. i am not sure if it smells burn.

i finished the procedure at 11pm, i immediately turn it on, no leaks, but the problem was still there.

i am very sad about it because i fell little impotent because we have been another victim of bad mechanic practice (did you know that even the dealership in this country INSIST that the transmission fluid is forever) and also because here in home the other car is a small car, the legacy is the only midsize car in the house which is the only suitable car for moving my grandma due is size, comfort and the frameless door which is VERY useful for very old people to come in and out of the car, and my grandma is very six and i am afraid to need to move it and the car is bad (ambulance services here can take up to 1hour to reach, thats a service citizens in this county dont count with)


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 Post subject: Re: Started with a delay engaging D, now it doesnt engage
PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 2:05 am 
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I'm sorry to hear about the poor mechanic practices.

Under normal conditions the power light is supposed to come on and stay on for a few seconds at startup, and then turn off. When it blinks 16 times at startup that is an indicator there is a code stored, and you need to pull the codes.

When you following the procedure on my site to pull the codes from the transmission computer, did the power light blink indicating codes were stored? If you don't have any codes indicating a failure of an electrical component, I would suspect the problem could be something mechanical like the fluid pump or possibly a passage in the valve body being clogged. Unfortunately, something like that would more than likely require disassembly of at least the valve body for inspection. If the mechanics there are not trustworthy, then I don't think that's probably a good idea.

My best suggestion would be to see if you can find a used transmission that is in ok condition and swap transmissions. Doing this work without the help of a lift can be quite challenging since the automatic transmissions are pretty heavy.

I wish I had some more suggestions for you. I'm happy to continue to help if you want to continue to try and troubleshoot the problem.

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surrealmirage.com/subaru
1990 Legacy (AWD, 6MT, & EJ22T Swap)
1997 Impreza OBS

If you need to get a hold of me please email me rather then pm


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 Post subject: Re: Started with a delay engaging D, now it doesnt engage
PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 5:07 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:27 pm
Posts: 37
I think I followed the procedure wrong, I think I erase the code and now it looks like the pronlem is not happening right now and that's why the transmission shows there is no code. BUT the fact itself of no showing the power light on when startup is a problem itself then, because you say it MUST, then what would cause the power light not to come on at start up?

an unpdate: yesterday, incredible I was able to get the same fluid "erickthecarguy" used, the lucas oil slid stopfluid, I pour it all and tried again, and no luck.
I even take the car to the highway to see if maybe I could make any difference.. nothing at all.

I can resume the whole problem stating that the transmission is stuck in third gear, I pushed the pedal to the botton to see if I force the trans to change a gear with no luck, neither a gear up neither a gear down, the acceleration between 60 and 80km/h has good and strong, but the revs was little high for 120km/h, which confirmed me that doesn't want to change to 4th gear.....

what can cause the power light not to come on after start?


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 Post subject: Re: Started with a delay engaging D, now it doesnt engage
PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:44 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:27 pm
Posts: 37
I was doing some research on the net about the case
but with more refined and precise scenario description

yesterday I was able to confirm what is the exact behavior of the transmission; it is stuck in 3rd

then I googled that and I found many TCU bad and failsafe mode related things

https://www.google.com.do/?gws_rd=cr,ss ... mode++4eat


check these replies I saw in thes other forums:
from:
http://www.3si.org/forum/f72/transmissi ... ar-503387/
Code:
What was the code ? , If the TCM finds anything electricaly wrong, it will trigger a code . If any code is present ,the trans goes into failsafe mode . So, after you get a code, you need to fix it before you determine that the trans is no good. Makes sense ?



from another post
Quote:
It sounds like the trans is in Failsafe mode (3rd gear)
You need to put a scanner on it and retreive the codes . If you can't comunicate with the TCM (Transmission Control Module) then you may have a bad TCM.


I can conclude, the problem is the same, and the power light is not coming on after startup like you told me, which would suggest a commmunicationproblem wiith the transmission module.


what do you think about all this?


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 Post subject: Re: Started with a delay engaging D, now it doesnt engage
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 10:15 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:27 pm
Posts: 37
Can a Throttle position sensor trigger failsafe mode in the transmission?


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 Post subject: Re: Started with a delay engaging D, now it doesnt engage
PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 10:46 pm 
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So, just to confirm what is going on. When you turn the key from the off position to the ON position (but don't start the car) does the power light illuminate? If not, then either the power light bulb is bad or the TCU may be bad or not getting power.

I'd recommend verifying that the TCU has good power & grounds. You can try testing the terminals for power & ground with a multi meter. Below are links to the TCU I/O which will tell you which pins to test.

http://www.main.experiencetherave.com/s ... _page1.jpg
http://www.main.experiencetherave.com/s ... _page2.jpg

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surrealmirage.com/subaru
1990 Legacy (AWD, 6MT, & EJ22T Swap)
1997 Impreza OBS

If you need to get a hold of me please email me rather then pm


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 Post subject: Re: Started with a delay engaging D, now it doesnt engage
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 2:35 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:27 pm
Posts: 37
Legacy777 wrote:
So, just to confirm what is going on. When you turn the key from the off position to the ON position (but don't start the car) does the power light illuminate? If not, then either the power light bulb is bad or the TCU may be bad or not getting power.

I'd recommend verifying that the TCU has good power & grounds. You can try testing the terminals for power & ground with a multi meter. Below are links to the TCU I/O which will tell you which pins to test.

http://www.main.experiencetherave.com/s ... _page1.jpg
http://www.main.experiencetherave.com/s ... _page2.jpg


I will go to try that now (I have the car with battery disconnected from two days ago, so the computers (ECU and TCU) should be clear now) I read somewhere that when the power light does not illuminate at any time it could be also more than two faulty or trouble codes

I tested the transmission sensors like the service manual says, all, absolutely all the sensors are fine, they are very well in the middle of the acceptable normal range.

but the throttle position is bad, i did the test with the multimeter and the resistance between pin 2 and 3 was 8.8 instead 10-12, and the measure for the throttle closed was 8.8 instead 12 and for the throttle open was 0-1.74 instead 3-5.


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 Post subject: Re: Started with a delay engaging D, now it doesnt engage
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 2:39 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:27 pm
Posts: 37
regardiong the power and ground you recommend me to test.. could you please be little bit more detailed.
for example, how do I test for power and ground? what do I hve to test, if power is going TO the TCU? or if power is coming OUT of the TCU in certain terminal?

sorry for my ignorance

regarding the TCU, I remove it and open it, the circuitry looks pretty fine, no burn smell, no visible blown chip.

but I would like to perform the test for power and ground but I cant understand the images you gave me (I mean I understand it but I don't know what to do)


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 Post subject: Re: Started with a delay engaging D, now it doesnt engage
PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:03 pm 
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Carlos,

I know you've emailed me, but to follow up on your questions; you need a multimeter to be able to test for voltage and check resistance. Based on your comment above, it sounds like you have one since you checked the resistance of the TPS.

To check the power and grounds on the TCU, you need to put the multimeter in the "voltage" mode and around the 20v range if it does not have an auto range feature. Remove the TCU from the car. Take one end of the multimeter leads and touch a good chassis ground then take the other lead and touch connector B46 pin 14 of the TCU connector. Additionally, check connector B33 pin 1 and connector B44 pin 6. Pin 14 should have 12v on it whether the ignition is on or off. Pins 1 & 6 should have 12v on them when the ignition is in the ON position.

Remember that the numbering on the above scans are labeled as if you're looking directly at the TCU. So when you look directly at the TCU chassis connectors the numbering will be mirrored. This thread has more info.

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=51176

To check the grounds you would want to put the multimeter into resistance mode and check the resistance from a good chassis ground to the following pins: Connector B44 pin 7, B46 pin 20, B46 pin 1, B33 pin 10.

Does that make sense?

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surrealmirage.com/subaru
1990 Legacy (AWD, 6MT, & EJ22T Swap)
1997 Impreza OBS

If you need to get a hold of me please email me rather then pm


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 Post subject: Re: Started with a delay engaging D, now it doesnt engage
PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:13 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:27 pm
Posts: 37
Thank you again Josh!
your help is higtly appreciated!.

first, I need to clear something.. you mentioned ECU.... did you mean TCU or ECU? or do I have to test the ECU too?

regarding the rest....
I understand 95% of your indications... but the 5% I don't understand is:
when you mention to test a voltage or resistance between a pin and ground...
do I have to disconnect the connector and to touch the connector at the end of the wire, the connector attached to the TCU itself, or with the connector plugged to the TCU the back side of the connector?

its just that for me there is three mode to "test" the connector
the female one (the one in the TCU, the male, or the back side of the male while connected.....

that what I don't understand...


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 Post subject: Re: Started with a delay engaging D, now it doesnt engage
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 10:39 pm 
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Carlos,

Sorry about the confusion, yes I meant TCU. I've gone back and fixed my post.

For checking power you can either disconnect the connector and to touch the connector at the end of the wire or with the connector plugged to the TCU the back side of the connector. For checking the ground wiring resistance/continuity you need to disconnect the connector and to touch the connector at the end of the wire.

Let me know if this and my email is enough clarification or if you have additional questions.

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surrealmirage.com/subaru
1990 Legacy (AWD, 6MT, & EJ22T Swap)
1997 Impreza OBS

If you need to get a hold of me please email me rather then pm


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 Post subject: Re: Started with a delay engaging D, now it doesnt engage
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:57 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:27 pm
Posts: 37
Josh
i just want to say thank you!

the problem is now solved!
it was the TCM, I received the one I ordered from ebay yesterday.
but before to install, I performed the ground and power test.

I followed your steps and everything was ok , so no doubt.

I proceed to install the new TCM and I all the problems were gone, the car shift even than before and down shift smoothly, may be the combination of the new quality oil, with the Lucas additive and finally the TCM... the car shift super smooth, under many circumstance it does not even fell when the shift is done.

Ii want to give you the most sincere thank you Josh!


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 Post subject: Re: Started with a delay engaging D, now it doesnt engage
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 6:21 am 
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Carlos,

You're very welcome and I'm glad the car is working good now!

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Josh

surrealmirage.com/subaru
1990 Legacy (AWD, 6MT, & EJ22T Swap)
1997 Impreza OBS

If you need to get a hold of me please email me rather then pm


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 Post subject: Re: Started with a delay engaging D, now it doesnt engage
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:17 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:27 pm
Posts: 37
Hellow Guys
Josh.
Hope you and all the other guys are fine!

Now i have another Subaru, an 2005 H6 Outback, everything fine but has rear suspension problems
that i will ask for advice in another post.

Guess what, the 93 Legacy has again the same exact problem.
One thing to notice, the probelm came almost exactly each 4 years!

The first change of Transmision was in 2010, the problems appeared in 2014
i change the TCM in 2014, now we are in 2018 and i am having problems again.

One day, thinking aboutall of this...
i am aware of how BAD local mechanics in this country works...
taking that into account, i thought... if i have exact the same TCM that the care came with (the one i bought form ebay)
but what if the "mechanic" didnt chose the right trasmission for the TCM i have in the car?

taking into accoutn that for the 90-94 legacys there are 30 different TCM!
and for Local Mechanics in this country they only mind if it is FWD or AWD if is Auto or Manual, if one of thes match, for them all the rest is the same....

i resume mi probelms:
2008 transmission damaged (The factory TCM)
2010 transmission changed (i kept the original TCM
2014 transmission working bad, i changed the TCM, problem completely solved
2018 transmission working bad again

Then i did a research and BINGO.
The transmission that was installed in 2010 (i entered the code in a web catalog) and i discovered it belong to a UKDM 1.6 Impreza.

Then here we have Three fails
a Impreza Tranny mounted in a Legacy
a 1.6 Tranny mounted in a 2.2 vehicle
a impreza Trany working with a Legacy TCM

What do you think guys_


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 Post subject: Re: Started with a delay engaging D, now it doesnt engage
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:42 pm 
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Hi Carlos,

That is interesting about the timing around all this. Do you know what year the Impreza transmission came out of? Is it a similar year as your Legacy? As long as it's a similar year/generation it "should" be ok. However, it's possible that something with that transmission is different causing issues where if the transmission was using the original 1.6 Impreza TCU it might be ok.

_________________
Josh

surrealmirage.com/subaru
1990 Legacy (AWD, 6MT, & EJ22T Swap)
1997 Impreza OBS

If you need to get a hold of me please email me rather then pm


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 Post subject: Re: Started with a delay engaging D, now it doesnt engage
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:58 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:27 pm
Posts: 37
Legacy777 wrote:
Hi Carlos,

That is interesting about the timing around all this. Do you know what year the Impreza transmission came out of? Is it a similar year as your Legacy? As long as it's a similar year/generation it "should" be ok. However, it's possible that something with that transmission is different causing issues where if the transmission was using the original 1.6 Impreza TCU it might be ok.


Sorry for the delay

No, i don't know the year of the impreza the transmision did came out.

Today i have to pick up a new TCM i bought from ebay, so i will see what happen.

In another Hand

i am traveling to USA to help my mom with her 05 Outback
which forum you recommend me for getting help fast?


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 Post subject: Re: Started with a delay engaging D, now it doesnt engage
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:59 pm 
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I'd suggest these.

https://www.subaruoutback.org/forums
https://legacygt.com/forums/
https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=85

_________________
Josh

surrealmirage.com/subaru
1990 Legacy (AWD, 6MT, & EJ22T Swap)
1997 Impreza OBS

If you need to get a hold of me please email me rather then pm


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 Post subject: Re: Started with a delay engaging D, now it doesnt engage
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:39 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:27 pm
Posts: 37
Legacy777 wrote:
Hi Carlos,

That is interesting about the timing around all this. Do you know what year the Impreza transmission came out of? Is it a similar year as your Legacy? As long as it's a similar year/generation it "should" be ok. However, it's possible that something with that transmission is different causing issues where if the transmission was using the original 1.6 Impreza TCU it might be ok.



Hi Josh!
Yesterday, i installed the new TCM
and all the problems gone.
now i hae 4 years more to decide if i keep this under us$ 60 fix or i get the right tranny or the right TCM for that tranny

in the long term i guess it is wise to get the right tranny for the 2.2 Legacy


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 Post subject: Re: Started with a delay engaging D, now it doesnt engage
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:55 pm 
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Ok, well at least you have a fix so if you run across another try for cheap you can get it now and save it for later

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Josh

surrealmirage.com/subaru
1990 Legacy (AWD, 6MT, & EJ22T Swap)
1997 Impreza OBS

If you need to get a hold of me please email me rather then pm


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