what do ya think about the new hatch body style

[PhyrraM]

I'm not understanding something.

Subaru styling has alwas been the kind that has to grow on you. As long as I can remember. The '70s to early '80s was just plain fugly. The mid to late '80s boxes were utilitarian. The first Legacies and Imprezas were completly plain and unimpressive. The SVX was too far out there. BUT, the styling has grown on us because of what was under the sheetmetal. Eventually we grew to even think they are attractive.

The first good looking Subaru, out of the box, was the current Legacy.

For most of us we drive Subarus because of such things as the boxer engine, cheap turbo upgrades, the 'lego' aspect, solid handling, AWD, reliability, WRC history, etc. Not one of those things has changed.

So what I don't understand is how some of us can say that we are not buying another Subaru, before even driving it, when Subaru is giving us exactly what they have always given us. A solid choice in a world of uninspired grocery getters.

[greg donovan]

Subaru is now dead to me.

We've talked about the framed windows and right-side exhaust extensively, or at least I have.

But the thing I'm super-pissed about was that they ditched the one Subaru trademark they had left...

THE PARKING LIGHT SWITCH IS GONE!

Yes, that's right, the parking light switch is gone, and if you want to turn your headlights on while your ignition is off and run your battery down, you are free to do so on the 2008 Impreza.

That was the straw that broke the camel's back. I'm done. I'm getting my Forester XT Sports and that's it. Subaru, you lost a loyal customer. Permanently.

so you are saying they arent AWD with boxer motors anymore?

[Manarius]

Look similar? I thought so.

[dropdfocus]

so you are saying they arent AWD with boxer motors anymore?

No one ever made that statement. They are still the only company to offer AWD standard in all their vehicles.

[legacy92ej22t]

He was being sarcastic....

[entirelyturbo]

Subaru isn't the only company to offer a boxer engine and AWD:



And sometime, look at a picture of the Alfa Romeo Alfasud's drivetrain back in the 70's.

As much as I hate to say it, Subaru aren't innovators in this territory.

Call me as melodramatic and overreacting as you want. These were classic Subaru characteristics. Now they're gone.

[evolutionmovement]

Ugly wussy cars I can't imagine them taking the abuse of the older ones. I wonder if they're using Honda's super-thin sheet metal for the body, too. Losing hill holder was dumb enough, but the headlights tied to the ignition is too much. That was just a simple useful design. I can't see the sense in losing that feature - when you're out digging shallow graves in the woods at night it's much safer to do it in the dark anyway. They look more Korean than most of the Koreans. More Korean than the new S-Class even.

I'm pulling the Forester out of the fourth novel and there will be a ration of shit about the present company they'll catch in the third one.

[entirelyturbo]

As for the exhaust, I can see a possible issue of a more straight run from the turbo, but that's it.

It doesn't work that way. The exhaust still drifts off to the left like we're used to, but the muffler now sits transversely on the car. The pipe enters it from the left and exits it from the right.

Thank you Steve for sharing my sentiment. People on NASIOC think I'm nuts.

[PhyrraM]

While I do like the frameless windows and the seperate parking light switch, I'll play devils advocate for the sake of conversation.

Subaru has stated many times they want to move upmarket. The loss of the frameless windows is simply a way to more closely meet thier NVH and reliability targets for the new Impreza. They also improve the ease of entry/exit by affording larger openings. I'm sure that in the long run they will be more trouble free also.

I have personally been called by 2 people (1 was my bro) about how to turn off the parking lights. While I also laugh a somebody who cannot RTFM, Subaru must look at small complaints such as this seriously.

Every Impreza since the '98 2.5RS has been contriversial in it's styling. Even to Subaru fans. '98, too boy racer. '02, too Bugeye. '04, Whoa look at the scoop. '06 Alfa anyone? We accepted them all. For years Subaru has won fans for it's engineering, now it wants to win a few for it's styling too.

Subaru is actively trying to get Civic, Corolla, Focus, Altima, Etc, Etc. customers. Thay are asking them to pay more money at the same time. Unfortunatly those customers apparently want bland basic transportation. So Subaru delivers.

I still say that most all the foundational Subaru traits have survived intact.

[evolutionmovement]

It was just the last thing left from Subaru's independent-minded past - clever cars that were inexpensive and made to stay that way (yet still a blast to drive). Now they're ugly generic cars trying to appeal to ... I don't know anymore. Seems they're trying to ditch their recent crooked-hat base with bland styling so maybe it would be Toyota's customers. They're the new Pontiac to Toyota's Chevy. Awesome. At least Mazda's getting their act together. The early-release photo of the new 6 looks sick.

[entirelyturbo]

As I've said though...

Subaru can do whatever they want. This is a global economy and, thus, mostly free enterprise.

If they really want to appeal to the masses and sell ten times the amount of cars they did before, they have every right to do it.

But by doing so, they're going to alienate their loyal fanbase (and by loyal fanbase, I do NOT mean the "crooked-hatter" crowd as Steve affectionately refers to them as), and I think I deserve to be considered part of Subaru's loyal fanbase.

If they want to just become another subsidiary of Toyota and build cars that we would damn near fall asleep driving, then so be it.

But I have just as much right to move on as they do, and that's exactly what I'm going to do.

Oh, and for the record, the Edsel nose never grew on me, and I saw twenty Edsel-nose cars a day for the past year and a half.

[PhyrraM]

I agree the Mazdas are looking good. I had an MX-3 v-6 before my WRX. It taught me I need/want AWD. Other than that, great car (for the time)

I'm trying like the dickens to get my wife to replace our Tribute with a Forester XT or CX-7. And honestly I don't have a preferance between those two.

If Mazda adds a Mazdaspeed 3x (or whatever AWD designation) I'd seriously consider it. You can get an AWD turbo Volvo with the same chassis as a Mazda 3 right now. Kinda pricey but I bet you can tune it to 300hp pretty easy.

Mazdas don't have frameless windows or seperate parking light switches however.

I bet I couldn't change a timing belt on a Mazda3, without pulling the accesories, like I can on our Subarus.

I read the posts on Nasioc, they are kinda hard on ya over there. Lots of FanBoys without much in the way of conversation backing thier opinions.

[entirelyturbo]

I really don't care about them being hard on me. If I wasn't able to handle it, I wouldn't be over there.

I can't help but notice though, that the "new" crowd are the ones that are fine with the changes, and the "old" crowd are not.

Whatever. I'm done bitching. What's done is done. Subaru made their decision and I made mine.

[evolutionmovement]

Those fanboys on NASIOC were the same dipshits in 5.0s laughing at my '84 GL in the early nineties. They aren't the fans of the same Subaru I love - the Subaru I consider another dead orphan like so many other cars I love.

Mazda never had the headlight switch so I don't care and it's just a car to me. I've already driven through the warranty so I wouldn't want something I loved as a daily. Now Subarus are just cars, too. A new one could never be the 'half' of the '3 and a half main characters' as I refer to the 1990 wagon in my book. Personality separates a car from an appliance. I don't need to drive the new ones to know which category they fall in. Too bad they're so ugly as I wouldn't even drive one as my daily.

The 3 might be fwd, but it's not an issue even with the couple days of snow global warming brings us. My complaints are the hard seats and shitty electronic throttle that takes a second to figure out what it means when you stomp on the gas from idle.

[thehookeup]

yea like i said i think that then body style is butt ass ugly. but the wrc version is the best looking yet.

the sedan in my opinion is super super ugly. the back end looks like dog shit, and the only thing i think that can somewhat help the front end, is if they put a crease down the center of the hood...

ugly ugly ugly.

wrc mmmm pretty pretty pretty
haha

[greg donovan]

I really don't care about them being hard on me. If I wasn't able to handle it, I wouldn't be over there.

I can't help but notice though, that the "new" crowd are the ones that are fine with the changes, and the "old" crowd are not.

Whatever. I'm done bitching. What's done is done. Subaru made their decision and I made mine.

i would consider myself an "old" fan of subarus and i like the new car.

good thing there are all the old subarus that came before this one that you can still buy and enjoy.

[greg donovan]

so you are saying they arent AWD with boxer motors anymore?

No one ever made that statement. They are still the only company to offer AWD standard in all their vehicles.

nope.

he said they gave away thier last trademark design with a light switch.

that would imply that they are no longer offering symetrcial AWD and a boxer motor.

[entirelyturbo]

Subaru isn't the only company to offer a boxer engine and AWD:

[greg donovan]

whatever, i just am really having a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that you are the most annoyed by the exhaust outlet, a light switch, and framed windows.

this is a serious question:

how old are you? i want to know so i can get some insight into your stance on this car.

[evolutionmovement]

The exhaust doesn't bother me, but the framed windows and light switch does because those are the unique, but thoughtful details that helped mark Subaru as something different. If I wanted another Toyota, I'd buy one and while they may not have ever made very attractive cars, they were at least cheap to buy and utilitarian. Form followed function, the way a Subaru always should, but I guess the whole world is turning gay and I'm having trouble adapting to that fact. Even trucks today are all about (dubious) styling rather than a simple look that gets the job done, even if that sometimes resulted in a classic design that stands the test of time or becomes iconic (fifties Ford, late '60-70's Chevy, original Range Rover). Funny, the only cars where the opposite is true, sports cars, are now more about the function of them rather than attractiveness.

I'm nearly 31.

[entirelyturbo]

I'm only 23, but I've owned my Legacy for 7 years as of 3 days ago.... before the WRX came out.

I also own two other Subarus, my grandfather had a Subaru last year, and my girlfriend currently owns a Subaru.

Altogether, I've done over 100k miles of driving in Subarus since then.

And I work at a Subaru dealership.

I'm seriously not trying to be a jerk here, but look up the words "vested interest." It's a sociology term, and it refers to the human resistance to change due to a large amount of work or dedication that is lost when the change occurs.

You're not the only one though. I now have points on NASIOC for my arguments, and I'm currently being personally insulted by the administrator of the Gran Turismo forums all for the same reason.

[greg donovan]

I'm only 23, but I've owned my Legacy for 7 years as of 3 days ago.... before the WRX came out.

I also own two other Subarus, my grandfather had a Subaru last year, and my girlfriend currently owns a Subaru.

Altogether, I've done over 100k miles of driving in Subarus since then.

And I work at a Subaru dealership.

I'm seriously not trying to be a jerk here, but look up the words "vested interest." It's a sociology term, and it refers to the human resistance to change due to a large amount of work or dedication that is lost when the change occurs.

You're not the only one though. I now have points on NASIOC for my arguments, and I'm currently being personally insulted by the administrator of the Gran Turismo forums all for the same reason.

your opinion is your own. like i said i am just having a hard time wrapping my head around it.

i think this thing has great potential. yeah it is changing some things.

i have never used the parking light switch in nearly 200K miles of driving subarus in the last 12 years i have been driving them.

yeah i really like the frameless windows. fortunately the legacy still has them (for now). i will miss them.

here is why i dont mind the right side exhaust :




however, i am in no position to buy a new impreza any time soon so none of this really affects me at all. i am perfectly content buying used cars for the forseeable future. and by 2015 this new design will probably have grown on me enough to want to buy one. besides maybe the restyle in '10 or '11 will be really awesome.

[entirelyturbo]

I just drove the sedan. And I was allowed to do just about whatever I wanted.














I need a few days. Sit tight.

[MPtyza]

Well, I revisited the dealership this past weekend and actually sat inside a hatchback. I'm taking back any praise I may have given it. I'm sorry, but the interior was so unoriginal, so un-Subaru like. The gauges were so damn generic, like they wouldn't look out of place in a Corolla. I like the 150 speedo, but that's about it. Sitting in it didn't feel like a Subaru. I can't believe I even thought this, but I wouldn't buy one. Depending on what they do next with the Legacy design, I may even say I won't buy any new Subaru. At least we'll still have all the older ones around

[entirelyturbo]

Okay, I drove the car. We took it on an industrial road close to the dealership where there was no traffic, and a few nice and wide 90º corners.

I have to admit, I threw the car into a corner and thought to myself "I can't believe I'm taking the corner this fast!"

Yes, it handles better than the GD chassis. I've driven GD cars on good tires that didn't handle as well as this car does on RE92's. The car took the corner at a faster speed and at the same time felt more composed. It still had a hint of understeer as any proper AWD car should, but it was much less pronounced and much easier to control.

And just for the record, I'm not some n00b who got lucky. I do have autoX and rallyX experience, some under professional instruction, and I've managed to stay close to the top 5% of the results for this year's GM Rev-It-Up. I'm in 417th spot, out of 7244 total... in the country. So I have a decent idea of how to drive.

So handling: +1.

The power? Yes, the torque is down lower. Yes the boost comes in quicker. I'm honestly not sure how it was done, as the EJ255 longblock is indeed simply a carryover from the 06-07 GD WRX, while the extremities are mostly Legacy GT, save for the turbo, which IS INDEED still a TD04. But I'd say it's almost at full-boost before 3k rpm. I wish it had a boost gauge so I could be certain, but there's definitely no falling down below 3k rpm like the late EJ205. And while we were trying to be somewhat nice to it (we didn't go above 5k), I can say the power is still there. It pulls just as hard as any stock WRX I've driven before.

So, power: equal. Torque: +1.

Now this is subjective and your opinions will differ from mine. But I do honestly like the overall look of the sedan anyway. It's nothing groundbreaking, but then again, what Subaru has been in terms of design? I never did get used to the Edsel-nose on the 06-07's. I'm sorry. I just never did, and I saw twenty of them a day for almost two years. But this car is at least very cleanly penned, if not particularly racy-looking. There's a couple things I'm not particularly thrilled about, such as the chrome strip on the trunk lid, or the fact that the cabin seems to extend too far back, almost making it look like a wannabe hatch. But overall, I would honestly say, in terms of looks, I'd pick the 08 over the 06-07 anyway.

So, I guess, styling: +1.

Okay, now, the interior. Personally, I don't like it. Those who have said it's similar to a Tribeca interior are mostly right. It is similar... and I don't like the Tribeca interior. It's not cheap, or fussy or un-user-friendly, or overstyled, or anything necessarily inferior. But... it just doesn't feel like a Subaru interior to me. If I sit in either the Tribeca or 08 Impreza, I don't feel like I'm at home, like I do in my cars, in a Legacy GT, in a GD/GG Impreza, or a Forester. They still have interiors that feel like Subaru interiors. But not these ones. Everything is different than what I'm used to. It's not even something I can completely put my finger on. But I just didn't feel at home in it. And, this is going to sound crazy, but I think the cabin is TOO BIG. That's right. I'd say there's at least a foot of clearance between the top of my head, and the ceiling. Now most people would agree that more room is always better, but I honestly felt like I was a little midget riding in the car, and I'm 6'3". I really don't like that.

So, interior overall, -1.

Now... as I've already said, I'm VERY steamed about the framed windows, right-side exhaust on the hatch, and the absence of the parking light switch. That's me being a traditionalist. I like my frameless windows, and I honestly don't care if they rattle when I close the door when they're down. It's a Subaru thing, just as the parking light switch was. Sure, no one uses it, but at the very least, it was something cool that only the Subaru die-hards knew about. That's my issue thus far, is that Subaru seems to be in favor of abandoning their identity to reach a "different crowd" (read: increase sales figures).

I'll bring up the Car and Driver article, where they did a sport compact comparo and the Impreza came in last. I personally hate Car and Driver (anyone who rates an RX8 over a 350Z is just plain stupid), and I don't think they tallied the results up fairly. The Impreza got marked off for not being as refined as the other cars. That irks me. Who gives a crap about refinement? We're testing Mazdas and Nissans and Subarus, not Bentleys and Jaguars and Mercedes. I want to know how FUN the car is to drive, not how plush the ride is. Subarus have NEVER been refined. They're scrappy, quirky, rough-around-the-edges (which in my opinion gives them personality), and most of all, FUN. And that's what the focus should have been.

So, I think in response to these complaints, Subaru basically just threw in the towel and focused on making the car "more refined" and a little more mature. And in the process, I think they took all the personality out of it.

So, why I needed a couple days to think was because I was going back and forth deciding whether the driving experience I had (which was mostly positive) was enough to outweigh the fact that I think the car is now a little too mainstream and cookie-cutter...


... and I decided it wasn't.

I got in an argument with someone on another board because they were saying that they didn't care about those "minor" things... as long as the car performs better. Well, yes. I'm here to say the car DOES perform better. I think we've already had numbers come up that the new car is faster in a slalom and pulls a percentage more g's and all that fun stuff. Yes, it does.

But my rebuttal to his argument was that speed isn't everything. Those who know me know that my automotive enthusiasm lies in more than just speed. Two of the Subarus I own are under 100hp for God's sake. But I still love them, because they're the quirky and eccentric Subarus that I've grown to know and love over the past few years.

This one, I'm afraid, is not.

So, yeah, my stance still stands. I'm going to get my Forester XT Sports hopefully as a college graduation present, and unless Subaru decides to remember their roots and understand that they NEED to keep their loyal followers, then I won't be replacing the Forester with another Subaru.

I know, I'm not a very good salesman am I?