Broken Head bolt!

tturnpaw · Post by **tturnpaw** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:56 pm

So removing the heads off my ej22 one of the head bolts was frozen and ended up breaking off in the head. I still think the threads are close to being frozen, if not frozen. I did release the torque before it broke.

I know there are a few options. Drill and tap, or a bolt extractor. Would anyone know by chance the tap i would need? The only issue i see with drilling and tapping being how deep the threads are in the block. The other issue being, there is 90% of the threads still stuck in the block. I figure ill pb blast the crap out of it and see what i can work with.

Anyone have any suggestions?

log1call · Post by **log1call** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:42 am

Since it started to move it will probably have a bit of rust in there causing galling, that is, the rust particalys are jamming up. If you can get it to move you need to work it back and forwards to crush and hopefully work some lubrication into the rust. An ezyout won't let you work it back and forwards so you need another type of remover, a square tapered tool you tap into a drilled hole. Unfortunatly the tool will try and spread the bolt making it tighter, so I'd try welding a nut on what is left of the bolt as my prefered plan. let it cool then apply plenty of lube and start working it back and forwards. Don't try and hurry it out but work it till it's really free then take it out a fraction and work it till that's free, then another fraction of a turn out and more working . Just be really patient and if it moves at all work it till it's nice and loose before trying for another fraction of a turn. If it moves at all, it will come eventually.

93forestpearl · Post by **93forestpearl** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:22 am

Pictures please.

Did the bolt "pop" at all? It you didn't hear that the threads never moved. It takes a bit of twisting to twist off a bolt of that size.

fishbone79 · Post by **fishbone79** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:37 pm

log1call wrote:Don't try and hurry it out but work it till it's really free then take it out a fraction and work it till that's free, then another fraction of a turn out and more working . Just be really patient and if it moves at all work it till it's nice and loose before trying for another fraction of a turn. If it moves at all, it will come eventually.

I used to shear bolts all the time until I found that a little patience goes a long way. If the threads moved, friction may have caused localized heat build and broke it, probably from trying to horse it out. If it sheared without thread movement... wow.

I'd weld a nut onto the top of it if at all possible. This will do two things - 1. give you an excellent head to wrench on; 2. heat the stud with concentrated heat like you cannot get with gas. The contraction that follows the expansion may help you out.

Oh, another trick I picked up from my old man: If (and only if!) the threads move, you can dry-ice the stud to shrink it. I did this on my truck transmission, worked like a charm... But warning, it makes the bolt very brittle, so you can't use it to break it free - only if the threads already move and are just too sticky. Steel at room temp shrinks allot more when cooled than it does expand when heated - a couple thousandths are all you need.

tturnpaw · Post by **tturnpaw** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 7:58 pm

The threads did move and broke all of a sudden. There was no excessive drag or anything to make it obvious it was frozen in there. It was a brittle bolt that coolant had gotten in and around and froze it in there.

I cant see how you could ever possibly weld a nut on thats deep in the hole to where any socket or even the welders stinger would fit.

fishbone79 · Post by **fishbone79** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:24 pm

Need pics.... do you have any protruding at all?

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:42 pm

You probably have to take the head off and get a pair of vise grips on the stud. I don't know if I'd want to weld a nut on with the aluminum engine, but I'm not a welder and have never done that. Try PB Blaster, several applications a day for several days and clamping on it, tighten it just a touch before loosening it and once it starts to move, keep working it back and forth like a tap. Spray with PB as you go. Be patient and hopefully it will go fairly easily.

You probably don't need to as PB Blaster's a good penetrant and cheap, but if you have a marine place nearby, you can see if you can find (that's a fairly big "if", unfortunately) Zep 45 or PLS as they're a little better. I prefer the 45, but my boss liked the PLS better. Just as an FYI. The cans also seem to last a long damn time. I reserve it for the stuff I know is going to really suck.

fishbone79 · Post by **fishbone79** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:45 am

Wow.. haven't heard about PLS in a long time. That crap was like $10 a can back in the late 80's. It works AWESOME though.

I've welded to steel that's in close contact with/tapped into aluminum without any problems... Cast Al doesn't have the heat dissipation issues that cast iron does.

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:24 am

Cool. Yeah, I think PLS is a little less than double that now. I can't remember as I used it when I worked at a marina and we just grabbed it off the shelf.

jefferson · Post by **jefferson** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:19 am

One thing you can do that should work is to weld a nut on to the end of the bolt. Get a nut that is smaller than the bolt and weld it to the bolt through the center of the nut. Then you will have something to grab hold of and use a wrench on. It would be easiest to use a mig welder. I have done it before on a motorcycle and it worked fine. I would for sure soak it for a while beforehand with your brew of choice.

Jeff

log1call · Post by **log1call** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 4:03 am

The welded nut is definatly the best bet. Being down the bottom of a hole you are going to have trouble drilling right in the centre of a broken off bolt, an arc welding rod will be long enough to get down there though. As suggested, use a nut and weld in the centre of it. It will expand the bolt and press the rust back out of the way then when it cools it will hopefully be a little free. I'd try the weld then apply oil otherwise the oil will make the welding difficult. I have done this job before on old trucks with long head bolts that go through the coolant.

206er · Post by **206er** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 5:00 am

jefferson wrote: Get a nut that is smaller than the bolt and weld it to the bolt through the center of the nut.
Jeff

i would get a bigger nut that fits over the stud with a slightly loose fit(m12?) so its easier to weld in there(more space) and also for easier weld penetration. also a larger nut will allow more torque and be less prone to rounding off. when you go to try and undo the stud heat the block itself to expand it not the nut. you dont want to make the fit tighter.

jefferson · Post by **jefferson** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:13 pm

If the stud isn't flush with the surface that would work and be the way to go. If it is broke off flush you need to use a smaller nut.

Jeff

fishbone79 · Post by **fishbone79** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:18 pm

The bolt will expand when heated, transfer allot of that heat to the block, and then cool. After the bolt has cooled it should have contracted to a slightly smaller size than it started out as.

I like the smaller nut idea if it's broken off flush.

tturnpaw · Post by **tturnpaw** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:42 pm

It's not that easy. If I took a pic you wouldn't be able to see the remaining bolt anyhow. Nothing portrudes or is exposed. Only the threads broke off in the hole in the block. The head is off but a typical stud removal won't work because the threads are so deep in the block. Anyone with a block laying around will know. Like a Irwin kit is too short to grab the stud.

93forestpearl · Post by **93forestpearl** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:40 am

That's a tough situation. I don't have any ideas at the moment.

Sounds like a good block for oversized studs. That's a little beyond the scope of what you are trying to do though.

magicmike · Post by **magicmike** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 4:37 am

The ONLY way your going to save this block is to take it to a machine shop and have them machine it out using a carbide bit. Then after they destroy the hole, they can helicoil it. Or you can look for a new block case.

tturnpaw · Post by **tturnpaw** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:13 am

If this were my turbo block I'd think about it. No this is an open deck pos with low miles and ran great. All I'm doing is a gasket replacement and I get this. I'll try some long easy outs before I take it to my machinist. Thanks for all your inputs, it always helps to bounce ideas off of people.

fishbone79 · Post by **fishbone79** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:27 am

With some persistence and patience I'll bet you can get it out. You'll probably have to pull the motor though. First drilling a perfectly centered hole, then increasing the bit size in small increments can hollow it out nicely without buggering the block. The more you bore it out without touching the threads, the better off you'll be.

Before you try the easy out, torch the side of the block a bit with some mapp gas. If you could cool the stud as well, that would be even better.

magicmike · Post by **magicmike** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:10 pm

my experience with easy outs is that they are hard a a rock and breack in the hole. Then you are left with even more shit to get out of there. As for drilling, thats a pain because the chances that the surface is flat where it broke off are slim to none and your not going to get the drill bit right on the center.

Check with Blackbart if hes still around. You can probably get a case for 100 bucks from him.

fishbone79 · Post by **fishbone79** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:46 pm

You'd need to use a small, sharp punch to drift a hole in the center of the stud first (SOP) so the drill bit has a guide, then start with a 1/8" bit and work up to a diameter just below the inside diameter of the threads.

You're right... easy outs are hard as shit, and I've broken allot of them... the thicker the one he uses, the better.... And the thinner the shell of the drilled out stud he has to remove, the better. Probably 1/2 the bolts on my truck sheared off in the holes, this method has worked for me every time (but one).

I'm not sure if this will help, but I thought I'd throw it out there... I had a 1/2" stud sheared off in the diff casing of my truck. I tired everything and it wouldn't budge, so finally I put a 3/8 bolt in the drill press vice nice and plumb, then drilled a 3/16" hole down the center. This was enough to stick the tallywhacker from the mig welder down into (with gas on full blast) and weld the bottom of the bolt to the top of the stud from the inside. It worked for me.... the stud was recessed about 3/4 of an inch and I used a 1" bolt.

log1call · Post by **log1call** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:22 pm

Centre punching the broken bolt, right in the centre, at the bottom of the water jacket is going to be difficult to say the least.

Drilling the bolt out as far as possible does weaken it's grip on the threads but, it also makes it easier for the ezyout to spread the thin shell of threads, jambing things worse than ever. The trick is to drill large enough to weaken the shell, but still get a decent sized ezyout in there, but not weaken the shell of threads too much... Experiance helps deciding which factor is the most critical.

However, since the threads broke off flush, it probably means it wasn't corrosion weakening the shaft of the bolt that caused the problem. That makes me thing the threads are tight in there. It started to turn so it will be galling that is the issue here. If you get an ezyout to grip, I don't think the threads are going to wind straight out. You are going to have to work it back and forwards.

I still think you will need either a welded on nut or one of the square shanked type ezyouts that can go clockwise and anticlockwise.

I'd try welding a nut on. I'd use a large nut and weld in the centre of it. If it's already flush then you are only going to be able to turn it out if you can get it to turn at all, but quite frankly, those head bolts are tough, if the bolt broke, the weld probably will too.

Have a go at welding and turning it, if it moves then work it back and forwards with oil, keep woking it and gaining ground as you can.

The only other thing is to take it to a machine shop who can erode it out for you I think.

It might be time to get another block, throw some rings and bearings, seals etc in it and know you are good for the next few years.

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Broken Head bolt!

Broken Head bolt!