EJ22T/25D Emanage trouble starting

[tturnpaw]

I recently finished my build, but the setup of everything isn't working completely. Ej22t with 25D heads, 530cc injectors, TD04, LS1 coils, and Emanage Ultimate. I've triple checked all the wiring, and ran the "analog input" to the factory map sensor. The maf is still connected, but I've deleted the boost solenoid with the NA resistor.

I have all new plugs, gaskets etc. The issue is the ignition channels to the Emanage. I've gotten spark on 180 out and what seems like on time, but it will not idle or run unless I'm continuously cranking the starter. Ive "verified" our cars to be under f-1 ecu diagram and the 89-93 ej20g. I have consistent fuel pressure. The car seems to run better when I dial the injectors back -40 to 50%. I have my ignition channels set input:2 output:4, and I've tried batch firing the channels. I see that cylinders 1&2 are on chan 1, 3&4 on chan 2. I have all my wiring following the firing order, which seems to work the best. 2 inputs, 4 out I'm not sure is the right order, it "runs" much better on 2 channel.

I will say that my harness was an NA harness that I converted to turbo. I switched the cam/crank signals, added boost solenoid back in, and made sure the other components were tied in. I am unsure about switching the cam/crank signals as white and black wires change position. I believe the small connector. Anyone with a turbo harness 92-94 want to clarify which color are the signals on cam/crank? Just to double check.

It wants to start, but won't rev at all. Most rpms when cranking and half-started were about 500. Emanage is all matching updates and firmware. Any ideas?

[tturnpaw]

I did a manual Trans conversion, it's an auto ecu. I made a jumper harness for the trans, it's not on the car at the moment. Could this be this issue? The body harness is a 90 NA, not sure of the differences between 89-91 and 92+

[wtdash]

Hi,
I'll give you some feedback, but no promises as wiring isn't my strong suit....

1. I did a turbo swap on my '90 Legacy L wagon>>> '93 SS. It's been 4+ years, but I only had to add the Turbo sensors (6 wires?) and swap the cam/crank wires for the wiring. I ran it w/the EJ22T ECU (all manual and autos are the same), until I upgraded to the Revtronix (defunct) and then the Rob Tuned EJ20G ECU.

2. I turbo'd a '98 Forester w/an EJ22T/EJ25D engine and running the stock Forester ECU, I used a Greddy EMU on top of that to run 525cc STi yellow side-feeds and TD05. I couldn't get the Greddy tuned by 2 different tuners, but I may have had a un-diagnosed engine issue @ the time. The Foz ran the stock coil pack, wires, and plugs - no CoP.


So....did the engine run in stock turbo form b4 you added the Greddy/535cc injectors? And since you're changing the cam/crank signals I'm 'assuming' you're running the Ej22T ECU, correct?

Excuse my ignorance (or not) but are the Ls1 coils similar to a stock WRX/EJ20G coil on plug setup? IF so, what are you doing w/the stock igniter?

ECU>>Igniter>>Coil pack>>Spark plugs is the stock config, I believe. How is yours setup? I'd think you'd need 2 igniters for all 4 channels?


And once you get it working you'll need to clamp the MAF and MAP @ <5V since you'll likely be over the limits of the Hitachi metal MAF.

RE: the transmission, Did you read Josh/Legacy777's swap info on his site?

Lastly, I should have my base MAP that ran my Forester (300 miles to the tuner) if you're interested in looking @ it....but remember it's setup for the stock ignition.

GL,
TD

[tturnpaw]

Thanks for the reply.

1: I added the map and boost control solenoid but not the wastegate control. All the wiring is correct otherwise. I believe I messed up the cam/crank wires until I saw that from both sensors they connect with the signal (-) at the connectors. I fixed this but I'm still finishing some zeitronix zt2 wideband install. This may have been the issue still haven't confirmed. Is the wastegate control solenoid mandatory?

I've been told by a few tuners they have had difficulty with them, one being Dominic at Maxwell Power. I feel confident tuning myself I also have aid from a friend with some previous EMU experience.

The engine ran before the 25d heads, injectors, intake and EMU. Im using the EJ22t theottle body. I installed a 90 NA harness so I think the ecu plugs caused some of this confusion.
The LS/LQ coils have a built in ignitor. The use an ign+, signal, ECU ign gnd, gnd at coil. I've only disconnected the ign signals from the stock ignitor. In most configurations I've seen, it's connected in bypass to the stock ignitor.

Just checked the injector wiring, all is good there.

After realizing I have a 90 body harness, my transmission wiring changed to the 90 NA 5spd wiring. I should have clarified. This car has been a long project coming, I'm just hoping to get this going instead of a PP6 route. I can also share my base map too with the ej22t ecu once I can figure things out.

I'm curious as to the channels on the EMU how they're routed. I've seen that Toyotas have the primary and secondary channels flipped. Eg: firing order is 1342, he had to run 4213 as chan 1,2,3,4. This could mix up my ign output wiring, so far 1324 works the best. Tomorrow ill jump in to finishing the datalogger and see what i come up with. Ill pull CEL codes too.

[wtdash]

Sounds like you're beyond my KB, so all I can add is that 'yes, you need to hook up the BCS' or use the dropping resistor from an AT car (search on here) or you'll get a CEL.

TD

[tturnpaw]

After fixing my cam/crank sensor wiring, it now starts but immediately dies. If it could keep running it would run as it did. The maf is the original one ej22t, I have the map and the two wire solenoid connected. It's the "wastegate control" I do not have hooked up. For the most part I know the injector wiring is correct, and my ignition signals are good. I have extended the wires for the ECT and that should be good. Did your car run with the 535cc injectors right after install or did you reduce the duty cycle in the Emanage?

[wtdash]

So, what are you working w/here, I should ask? Is this a NA>>turbo swap or RU putting this all in an old Brat or similar?

For reference, still not clear....UR using an EJ22T ECU? You only state "used an auto ecu" above....and some people aren't clear that the auto and manual ECUs are the same for the turbo models (and NA, I believe), up 'til about '99+.

Pin "B48.20 Transmission ID" should be disconnected after the trans swap.....but I just read this on Josh/Legacy777's swap notes

ECU MT/AT Identifier Info

The factory manuals state that for AT's the MT/AT pin should read 0v, and the MT's should read 5v. The ECU has a reference voltage that it sends to this pin. If the pin is grounded the voltage will read 0v. That pin is grounded on the automatics. All you have to do is snip the wire going to the MT/AT pin, and the ECU now knows the car has a manual transmission.

Note: I swapped a 1992 ECU in my car to match the 1992 injectors I swapped in. When I put in the new ECU I found that the MT/AT identifier pin was wired backwards to what the factory manuals stated, and to how my 1990 ECU was wired. So I re-attached the wire that went to the MT/AT identifier pin, and the 1992 ECU was now setup for the manual transmission.

If your ECU thinks it's a manual/automatic and the neutral/Park(?) switch thinks it's in gear it may be cutting ignition??? I'd search on here on that one. And the TCU/TCM is removed, correct?

RE: EMU + 525cc STI injectors (per all the flow rates I've seen)-- I installed it all, put in the base map I was given, and it started and ran. Other than trying the 'Auto-tune' feature (which didn't work), I barely messed w/the tuning......which is why I had to drive it to Seattle (and Portland) to try to get it tuned.


Just to clarify on the BCS, you don't have to use it, you just need it hooked up to the electrical connector, or use the dropping resistor to avoid a CEL. I'm 99% sure it's not the reason your car isn't running, though, but it may cause a 'limp' mode if it throws the Code.

I'd guess you're using another EBCS or MBC anyway.


TD

[Legacy777]

I've read through this, but have not been able to follow what you've done. If there's any way you can provide a complete recap of everything that was done and all the different components that were used, that would be extremely helpful in troubleshooting.

The LS/LQ coils have a built in ignitor. The use an ign+, signal, ECU ign gnd, gnd at coil. I've only disconnected the ign signals from the stock ignitor. In most configurations I've seen, it's connected in bypass to the stock ignitor.

Can you please clarify this statement? Do you just have the igniter disconnected or are you taking the signals from the emanage directly to the LS1 coils?

Honestly I'm not real clear how you are running the ignition signals through the emanage to the LS1 coils. How do you have the ignition setup configured in the emanage? The ignition will have to stay wasted spark. Cylinders 1 & 2 and 3 & 4 have to be tied together for the ignition to work using the stock ej22t ECU.

[tturnpaw]

Sorry, I was on my phone skipping the details.

Car is a 92 Touring wagon ej22t auto originally, now a 5spd.
I installed a 90 Wagon ej22e 5spd Engine/body harness....mine was a hackjob.
There used to be a TCM when it had the auto harness, now its the 1990 5spd NA harness so it was completely removed with the old harness.

Took the ej22t, installed 99 Legacy outback 2.5 ej25d heads, crossover, and intake manifold and installed them.
Im using the ej22t throttle body and maf. Not sure if my MAP is turbo or not. I had a donor car that i used all the parts from, im not sure where my wastegate control sensor is.

http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt21 ... Wiring.jpg

Using this diagram, I ran my power to switched ign, 5v signal to stock ecu or from the emanage channels 1&2 running on settings 2input 2 output (has the same effect), brown is run to ignition ground at ecu, black is grounded at chassis with good grounds.

The ignitor still is mounted and connected, I just disconnected the ecu ign channel 1 &2 wires and used those for signals. Its only diplaying a CEL 22 Knock sensor, probably my ej25d one that could possibly be faulty.

From what I can tell the issue is a spark signal drop, they fire fine as they should on all cylinders, then the signal disappears and its as if I turned the key off.

My knock sensor code just came up, Im switching it back to my old knock sensor until I can buy a new one.

"ECU MT/AT Identifier Info

The factory manuals state that for AT's the MT/AT pin should read 0v, and the MT's should read 5v. The ECU has a reference voltage that it sends to this pin. If the pin is grounded the voltage will read 0v. That pin is grounded on the automatics. All you have to do is snip the wire going to the MT/AT pin, and the ECU now knows the car has a manual transmission.

Note: I swapped a 1992 ECU in my car to match the 1992 injectors I swapped in. When I put in the new ECU I found that the MT/AT identifier pin was wired backwards to what the factory manuals stated, and to how my 1990 ECU was wired. So I re-attached the wire that went to the MT/AT identifier pin, and the 1992 ECU was now setup for the manual transmission."

^This is a definite possibility. Its a 1990 5spd harness, and a 92 ej22t ecu that was auto.

[Legacy777]

The turbo Legacy ECU's behave like how the FSM describes. So assuming it is a 5spd harness, there should be no wire at the AT/MT identifier pin. Are you running a turbo legacy ECU?

What I would suggest is....if possible stick a stock igniter & coil pack back in and see if the engine runs. That will help eliminate the coils & wiring that you've installed as the possible problem. I really don't know what else to tell you at this point.

[tturnpaw]

Yup, I verified there isn't a wire located in that trans identifier pin. I'm running a 92 ej22t ecu. I had two ecus earlier, and asked in another thread what the numbers were and I double checked it to be a turbo ecu 4eat.

I've been using the FSM as a reference so far. Where can I find a diagram for the ignitor so I can trace the wires down? I can do process of elimination but that takes a while. Thanks in advance.

I'm picking up a new knock sensor of an ej22e, and install the factory coil pack back in, and hopefully find a 2.5 coil bracket that works. I may have to make one if I can't find it. I have a set of ej25d plug wires I can run. Ill post back with more info.
Thanks for the help.

[Legacy777]

Either of these should have the igniter wiring info in it.

http://www.main.experiencetherave.com/s ... agrams.zip

http://www.main.experiencetherave.com/s ... _and_Elect

[tturnpaw]

Thanks again. I installed a diamond coil pack and replaced the connector with it, installed another non cracked knock sensor and connector. I ran the ign channels 1&2 to the emu 1&2. Settings are on 2 input and 2 output channels. The engine will now start and run for 3-4 seconds then shuts off as if it ran out of spark or fuel. I do have a small kink in the fuel line where the hose connects, but I'm thinking it shouldn't be a big deal as I ran an ej22e on ea82 fuel lines fine. The fuel pump relay seems to be working fine, and ive installed a walbro 255lph pump. If I continue cranking, the engine wants to continue running but if I let off it dies. Playing with the throttle when it does start just stumbles and dies. I verified the neutral safety switch gets 12v when in gear or 0v when in neutral. I may have that backwards but the FSM says that's how it should be.

I have added a couple grounds from the strut tower factory grounds to the coil and to the frame rails, so not a grounding issue.

B58 pin 9, the parking switch, reads 2v but says on the FSM that it needs to be over 8v to be in park. Is this part of the issue, or is it that I need to wire in the wastegate control?


I'm still getting a knock sensor code, I leave the batt disconnected so it shouldn't store the code. I've ruled out the knock sensor itself and the connector. If there's an issue within the wire in the harness or the computer I'm not sure. Visually, it looks fine. This ecu has always thrown the knock sensor code since I've purchased the car.

I'm going to pin the ecu identification wire and see if the voltage is correct, but I do know the car will not crank with the clutch switch connected.

What size resistor do I need to solder in to fool the computer into thinking the wastegate control switch is there?

wtdash, I could use that base map for reference now that I have a factory coil pack, any chance you could post it or pm me? Ill upload my maps once I get it somewhat dialed in. My goal is to reduce the injector duty cycle first, then ill delete the maf, and get my timing adjusted.

[wtdash]

HI,

Pm'd the Greddy file location. Plz remember that this was used on '98 ECU (OBD2), w/525cc injectors, and it also had the Greddy MAP sensor 'option'.


You're getting closer....but I'll reiterate the WG control/BCS (boost control solenoid) won't keep it from running. Neither will the KS code. Please search on here about the 'dropping resistor' or read ThIS.

Disconnecting the battery doesn't always eliminate stored codes. Ultimately you may need to connect the 'green connectors' and run the active diagnosis, which includes clearing the ECU of codes. But you have to be able to drive the car to make this work.

And actually, the car WILL crank/start w/out the clutch switch, as I left mine off when I did my 5-speed swap. You only need it you're also using the starter interlock relay that keeps the car from starting w/out depressing the clutch (Thanks to Josh/Legacy777 for this info).

TD

[tturnpaw]

Thanks! There's the map sensor, and wastegate control. Maybe I have the wrong wiring there with the BCS wired to the pressure exchange instead of the wastegate control.

I'm missing the pressure exchange solenoid/switch, and now realizing my BCS is connected to pressure exchange at ecu when it should be wastegate control.

Do I need the pressure exchange solenoid? I haven't been able to find it, just the connector and pigtail. Ill keep looking.

[Legacy777]

I verified the neutral safety switch gets 12v when in gear or 0v when in neutral. I may have that backwards but the FSM says that's how it should be.

Assuming you're talking about the MT equipped car and ECU, this is backwards. The following is from my AWD & 5spd swap write-up

"The neutral switch's operation is pretty simple. Tell the ECU & TCU (if automatic) that the transmission is not in gear. However, the wiring is different between the two transmissions. On the manual transmissions, one lead going into the neutral switch is grounded. The other end goes to pin 10 of B58. The ECU supplies a voltage to the circuit. When the transmission is in neutral the neutral switch is open, so the voltage at pin 10 would be 8v or higher. When the transmission is put in gear, the neutral switch closes and the voltage reading would be 0v."

B58 pin 9, the parking switch, reads 2v but says on the FSM that it needs to be over 8v to be in park. Is this part of the issue, or is it that I need to wire in the wastegate control?

If you are setup for a MT, you should not have or need anything going to the parking switch. Have you pulled out the TCU and all the other associated AT computers, TCU, shift lock, & key interlock systems?

I'm still getting a knock sensor code, I leave the batt disconnected so it shouldn't store the code. I've ruled out the knock sensor itself and the connector. If there's an issue within the wire in the harness or the computer I'm not sure. Visually, it looks fine. This ecu has always thrown the knock sensor code since I've purchased the car.

You need to get a multimeter and check the knock sensor wire's continuity from the connector in the engine bay to the ECU connector.

[tturnpaw]

Ill double check everything again. This harness was pulled from a 1990 5spd wagon so it should be completely fine.

Yeah I removed the tcu when I pulled the dash and I switched all of the harnesses to the 1990 harness so everything but the front headlight harness is 1990. I even removed the abs, which I plan to add back in.

My donor car had front end damage so I soldered in my 92 front headlight harness. Somebody butchered up the stock 92 turbo harness with an alarm and whatever diagnostic they thought they were doing by cutting wires.

[tturnpaw]

Checked the neutral safety. 0.40v when in gear, 10.8v when neutral
That's good. I was not around the FSM or the car when I posted that I figured I could have said it backwards.


Parking switch had a blue/brown wire was connected, ecu sends 10.8v when ign on. Pulled the pin with no change to the car.

I installed a pin to the Trans identifier location and grounded it with little effect. Probably runs better without the pin so I removed it.

The car is running now, barely. I'm using wtdash's base tune mapping with the airflow zero-ed, and some settings changed. Turns out, I needed another drop selection for engine type, I'm using the 93-96 ej20g selection, which is coil on plug. I selected the channels to 2in 2out and it starts up rough. I'm surprised the 89-93 ej20g selection won't pick up my signals from the ecu or cam/crank. It would start run and stop in short duration but wouldn't log anything but a couple inputs. Sometimes when I hit the datalogger on the 89-93 selection, it said an error of parameters out of trim or something like that.

The kicker? It ran just fine for a base tune as far off as it is on 93-96 selection with 4input, 4out with an emu error of "no signal channel 3,4. So possibly I can run my ls coils soon. If not I'm probably getting another ignitor. Diamond coil pack for now.

Thanks again for the help! Now if I could get a datalogger file of a stock ej22t, and maybe an airflow meter map that'd be great.....

[wtdash]

Thanks again for the help! Now if I could get a datalogger file of a stock ej22t, and maybe an airflow meter map that'd be great.....

Clarify this for a noob, plz???..... as I have software that can log the EJ22T, but I just (last week) upgraded to the EJ20G Rob Tuned ECU. I have the Evoscan software I can log with.

If you want to use the Revscan software to log it's in the same location I PM'd you - not sure it'll log the EJ20
G. You'll also need a USB>>Serial connection that can plug into the Select Monitor port - you can get one for a about $20 HERE.


Thanks,
Td

[tturnpaw]

My problems with the initial tuning are associated with the maf voltage below 4k rpm. I should be able to dial in the injector duty cycle if I have a reference. I'm still installing the zeitronix for the wideband. It has a linear narrowband simulator with adjustable switching points. So I can send a rich signal at idle to the ecu, which will reduce the adjustment values on my duty cycle and keep the ecu from trying to switch between a lean/rich condition. I'm just hoping that sending a rich narrowband signal won't make it more difficult to dial in the duty cycle, in that case ill run a "normal" afr signal and go from there. In open loop (not wide open throttle) the ecu is using the o2, knock, timing, and intake temp to adjust between rich/lean. If I can simulate as many stock signals as possible, including the maf at cruising etc, it will make it easier to use my GM 3bar map as a linear reference. Mainly, I need a graph to compare tps, maf, injector duty cycle, and timing of a stock ej22t. Then I know stock values the ecu receives before making large adjustments and not getting anywhere with the tune.

This was my error for not data logging information before doing the head/turbo/injector change. The stock ecu has switching rpm points of fuel, timing, and load if I knew these values this would eliminate most of the headache. Hopefully I can get everything within check and post the tune for the community as a reference of ej22t/25d td04 535cc yellow top injector conversion on our cars.