All of you give me funny looks for wanting an auto?

[ciper]

I got an unexpected gratifying email from the president of I-speed (one of the top subaru engine swappers).

I asked if they had any working/broken autos available from automatic to manual swaps (they are local). Here is the first part of his email

"We keep our auto tranies for our more powerful conversions and motors (2.6-2.8's). The only other place I can think of that deals with high Subaru volume is Subaru-Suzuki Salvage Yard in Rancho Cordova CA."

Meaning the largest and probably most powerful Subaru engines available are using an automatic, and they are stock not counting a modified TC.

Read the webstie, they actually use EJ22T bored/stroked to these big displacments. http://www.i-speed.us/products/engine/

[THAWA]

I never gave you funny looks

But I'd have to agree, based on what I've read the auto will hold up to torque better.

[MY92]

Funny looks?

What application are they using the autos for? Surely it couldn't be better than a manual in say a autocross?

[ciper]

Manuals arent always better in any application. It depends on the control over the transmission (both with the computer and learning how to drive it).

Meaning you dont have the be the best damn driver in the world to make an automatic fast unlike a manual. With the automatic you get many features that are perfect for turbo cars. loading the engine at a stand still, running a higher rpm than the speed of the output and torque multiplication at low speeds to name a few.

Even the best drivers have a hard time building boost in a manual between shifts. With an automatic you can almost keep high boost from 0-top speed.

The center differential design also is alot better than the 5 speed. Either Clutch based or VTD will kick the crap out of any viscous center on high power applications on low traction or cornering.

The other advantage is predictability. With an automatic you feed it the same inputs and it will behave the same every single time. Meaning you can fine tune your driving procedure instead of that plus worrying about shifting. You start to know exactly the % of throttle used and can change it to control the transmission if needed.

You should also remember how a 5 speed has a flywheel attached to the engine. You can park two identicle cars next to each other except one has a manual and one has an automatic and easily see the difference. An automatic is so free revving its almost in the motorcycle level. Throttle response is instant.
Getting so used to automatics I was shocked when I drove my xt6 for the first time after sitting for a while I thought something was wrong. It took me a second to realize a big fat weight was attached to the engine and thats why it felt so laggy.

[MY92]

Ok, you got me

The only real complaint I have about my auto is that when driving through some twisties in low speed with the shifter in 2, its annoying when it chops down to 1st.

[ciper]

I have to try and say this without being rude, you havn't taken advantage of the features already included in the transmission. You are more lucky than most because the manual button will acomplish what you need.

Aside from that an interupt between the TPS voltage and the TCU can solve those problems. If you wanted a "manual shift" automatic it wouldnt be too hard to create with a push button. Instead of letting the voltage through (4.5 at WOT right?) you let through half of that and the transmission will stay in the selected gear regardless of throttle position.

I plan to do this on my car, even though my shift method will do most of this I want to be able to hold gears at any RPM for tuning (holding 3rd from 20mph to 115mph gives you lots of tuning time)

[MY92]

How rude

Just j/k

I'm more than keen to find out ways to drive the auto better.

The manual button is good, but its a bit tricky when the corner is slow that you fall out of power band in 2, hence it requires more throttle which with manual off drops into 1st.

I've always thought about getting a steering wheel from a late model Legacy with the shift buttons and trying to get that to work, but thats only a thought so far.

Another thing, did the US cars not get a manual button?

[ciper]

US cars got it, but only for the 90-94. After that we got a lame "put the selector in second and start in second" TCU when subaru cheaped out on the second generation.

How about a wheel mounted manual button? You could turn it off an on as needed.

[MY92]

I think I'll go for a nice drive through the twisties tonight and find out more about the auto.

[ciper]

Drive with two feet for the best results, its hard to learn since you press the gas lightly for alot of change and the brakes alot for a little change. Once you get practiced enough you can keep the car at optimum rpms at almost any speed.

[MY92]

Will be interesting all this stuff I'll have to focus on while driving.

[evolutionmovement]

Ciper - ever read anything about the Chaparral race cars? They almost started the secrecy in the pit thing single-handedly. Partly they didn't want anyone to know their cars were autos. No one could figure out how the driver could steer wiyth both hands and brake so late without shifting. The competition must have figured it was a preselector, but I don't know. They were also hugely pioneering in the field of race car aerodynamics and construction (fiberglass monocoque). Try to find something about the 2J fan car - that thing was insane!

I thought the manual trans case in Subarus was related to the ones they designed decades ago and flexes under immense torque and that causes the majority of the failures.

The only problem I have with autos in general (besides that I think they're less fun) is that anything beyond 3-speeds seem to hunt and I hate the hunting. I've been told that manually shifting an auto frequently can shorten its life, although I can't imagine how - its just a different input, like in place of kick down. Then there's the Porsche Tiptronic (Audi uses this also under license) which is just a manually shifted auto. But why call it something special if shifting a traditional auto causes no problems? Anyway, I always manually shifted my '84 and never had any trouble. Of course with very little power, it wasn't like the drivetrain was stressed too bad even with all the brake stands and neutral drops.

Steve

[scottzg]

We know you like the AT, and you can have it. There are applications where the auto is the better choice, supras and drag cars for example.

In my first 4 years of driving, the only auto i drove was a very old van. Now, it doesnt matter if it's an incredibly fast, nimble car, if it has a auto, it feels like a van. I just can't enjoy it.

[Dr Nick]

I don't want to start any kind of Auto/Manual flame war here, but name me a single international high-level motorsport where they use autos...

My parents have auto cars and I've been driving both manual and automatics for 18 years (boy do I feel old now!) and they both have their place. However none of the autos that I've ever driven would seriously beat the manual equivalent model in a straight up race, drag or road. There are issues with engine braking, especially in snow and ice, and the torque convertor on most autos gives a 'laggy' feel just like having a heavy flywheel.

However, that said I'm in a position where I don't know which I'll go for next as I now do a lot of motorway driving (freeway for you US people) and autos are much more relaxing!

I agree with the left-foot braking thing - it's fantastic once you get used to it and it's a recognised way of speeding up your reaction time. It's possible to use it in a manual as well if you're a bit clever but coming to a full halt will stall your engine every time as there's no feet left to push the clutch!!

Just my 2c worth...

[evolutionmovement]

The Chaparral competed in mostly US sports car events, but also some international racing (including the Nurburgring and Le Mans), but that was back in the sixties. Most drag racing cars are also automatics.

As for left foot braking a manual, I do it all the time, though I would never try to transfer from left foot to right foot braking (like when coming to a stop) in an emergency as I'm sure I'd screw it up, however it can also be done. I mostly use left foot braking when travelling way too fast or in snow or dirt where I'm unlikely to need to come to a complete stop. You just need to get a feel for the brakes as you don't want to change or interrupt brake pressure as you switch feet so you can use your left for the clutch. I'm trying to see if I can teach myself a reliable way of using just my right foot to replicate a left foot braking technique by straddling the brake and gas as in a heel to toe downshift, but it requires a lot more finesse since both halves of your feet would have to manipulate the pedals accurately, yet with differing pressures. It would also be extremely sensitive to the right pedal relationships.

But that's enough about manuals in an auto thread...

Steve

[Legacy777]

the only way to drive an auto is with two feet......I've been doing it for several years now....and that's the only way I can stand driving it

each trans have their place and preference....that's all there is to it.

[entirelyturbo]

I drive a manual because it's more fun. Technically, it is faster, for the simple reason that the crankshaft is spinning at the exact same speed as the tranny input shaft. And while ciper claims that a flywheel is heavy and full of inertia, realize that so is a TC and ATF.

But I do understand there are some merits to autos.

Yes it is true, newer Subaru autos tend to hold up better than Subaru manuals, JDM gearboxes and the new STi 6MT excluded .

ciper is also right that it's easier to keep an auto with turbo on boost since you can keep the revs up in the sweet spot whether the car is going as fast as the engine or not.

And if I were to build a full-out drag car, I would only go with an auto. Simply put, an auto can shift faster than you. Period.

It's also true that it takes more practice than you might think to drive an auto. As ciper and Josh mentioned, two-foot driving is very helpful once you calibrate your left foot for the brake pedal.

I remember watching some kid at an autoX trying to run a 91 MR2 auto, and he simply didn't have a clue. He would be on the brakes full into a turn with his right foot, enter the apex, get on the throttle too late even for an MT, and then what seemed like an eternity later, the tranny would downshift and he would surge forward. He had control of the car, but he was goin friggen slow I wanted to go over there, and show him how I could drive 5 seconds faster than him in my first autoX ever in a car I had never driven just by using some left-foot braking. Just go into the corner left-foot braking, keep your foot ever so lightly on the gas . Once you let off the brake in the apex, your tranny is already in the right gear and your rear end is settled and stable.

So no, an auto isn't all that bad. But for my driving style, I have to go with MT. I feel bored letting the transmission do everything, and I still will never get used to the delay in throttle response that an auto has, simply because liquid is connecting the engine to the tranny, rather than solid.

[MY92]

I went out for about an hour last night, and boy what a difference left foot braking can make in terms of controling power. It is absolutely ridiculous what you can do with it.

Now the weekend is nearly here, I'm going to have lots more fun

However, the tail liked to step out on corners below 50km/h where the car in 2 w/ manual off would drop down into 1st. I gotta learn to control this.

[evolutionmovement]

More gas or less trail braking. I have a wagon and they have a higher cg in the rear and tend to step out more, also. I don't know if you have a sedan or wagon so I'll just mention that. You can pirouette these cars at the nose like a ballerina on tight 15mph off ramps with the right use of left foot braking (though i have a manual, the physics is the same).

Steve

[MY92]

I'm in a wagon.

I find that in my friends sedan/manual, it tends to feel more head heavy. I assume this is because the wagon has more weight in the back so it feels easier to weight transfer.

Either that or I'm just talking a load of trash.

[LaureltheQueen]

in my old tires, i loved to drift. God i miss those. lol

[MY92]

I went for an absolutely wicked drive yesterday, left foot braking kept the car in 2 to stop it from dropping down to 1st and kept it in powerband.

Where previously if I had it in manual, it would fall out of powerband or if I didn't have manual on, it would drop down to 1st.

The auto is SO fun to drive

[legacy92ej22t]

Well excluding drag cars and the team that Steve has mentioned you very, very rarely see autos in auto racing of any kind. I don't like driving autos very much unless they're a big truck or something either. I just feel detached from the car in autos.

If I was going to build a high horse power, straight line drag car I would strongly consider an auto but besides that though, any driving condition that requires cornering of any kind, I'll take a MT please.

[Noodles]

i'm on my learners licence ( i think the seppos, jokin guys, call it a permit or sumthin) both my parents cars (2004 honda accord euro and 2004 Volvo XC70) are autos with psuedo-manual modes. i dunno whether its as fun as a conventional manual, but it sure is a hell of a compromise. soon as u get within 100 metres of a corner slide the selector sideways and u've got shifts that take half a second. both cars will hold a gear till u destroy something (i forgot it was in "manual" and tried to get up my drive-way in 3rd... oops! ) BMW also have their SMG manual which is a clutchless paddle shifting manual with shifts taking 0.008 seconds or sumthing ridiculous. i guess all i'm tryin to say is that auto's are gettin there as far as driveability goes. not so boring after all

[ciper]

"for the simple reason that the crankshaft is spinning at the exact same speed as the tranny input shaft"

That happens in an auto as well, especially if you wire it up for manual activation