Performance Alignment...

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 2:27 am

Just got back from my buddies house where we aligned my car.

Starting stats were:

.5 degrees negative camber in the rear
0 toe in the rear

0 degrees negative camber in the front
0 toe in the front

Ending stats:

.5 degrees negative camber in the rear
0 toe in the rear

.5 degrees negative camber up front
Just over 1/8" toe-in up front

Do I notice a difference? Yes.

The car feels GREAT in the turns. Turn in is MUCH sharper with the extra bit of camber, and the extra toe helps straight line stability and increases turn-in crispness.

The car understeers less and just feels BETTER all around. It should have been like this from the beginning. I think I might want to go with a slightly more aggressive camber setup in the front, but I'll see how this setup acts at the limits.

Pics:

Post by **Legacy777** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 2:52 am

Usually toe in the front won't help straight line stability.

A little bit of toe out in the rear will give you better response, but at a loss of stability, and slight twitchy feel.

I run -1 deg of camber front and rear, and like that setup. I haven't played with toe settings too much.

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 2:59 am

Nah, front toe is constantly changing based on speed.

As speed increases, the toe flexes OUT about 1/8". So my 1/8" toe-in becomes 0 toe at speed. 1/8" toe-out becomes 1/4" toe-out at speed.

Under braking, the front flexes IN about 1/8" so my 1/8" toe-in turns into 1/4" toe-in under hard braking, increasing turn-in stability and allowing the front end to bite pretty hard.

The toe in the rear affects how the back of the car behaves. I have 0 toe in the rear, and I will probably keep the rear at 0.

I'll probably keep it at .5 degrees camber until I decide on my suspension upgrade path and I can re-design my whole setup.

legacy92ej22t · Post by **legacy92ej22t** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:27 am

Nice Phil! I want to set my suspension up soon too. I need to lay off the extensive engine modding I've been doing and give some love to my suspension most definitely. Then again, unfortunetly I think I'm going to have to love up the tranny first because it really needs it!

THAWA · Post by **THAWA** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:32 am

legacy92ej22t wrote:unfortunetly I think I'm going to have to love up the tranny first because it really needs it!

out of context that could be HORRIBLY misinterpreted.

legacy92ej22t · Post by **legacy92ej22t** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:45 am

THAWA wrote:
legacy92ej22t wrote:unfortunetly I think I'm going to have to love up the tranny first because it really needs it!
out of context that could be HORRIBLY misinterpreted.

LMMFGDAO!

I didn't even realize that! Hhahahahaha, that is too funny.

Always look at the feet boys or you could be in for a BIG suprise!

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 5:29 am

Can rear toe even be adjusted with the stock control arms on the AWDs?

Steve

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 9:24 am

Steve - Yep! You just need some camber bolts, and BOOM, you can dip the rear out.

I've already got plans to kick the camber out to -1 and -1, and I want to get 1/16" of toe-out. That way, under braking, it'll toe in a bit and create a bit of stability, and it won't be horribly unstable at speed. I dunno though, I like the stability at speed that the 1/8" in gives. My average turn speed is 20 to 80mph, depending on the conditions and the turn. At 80mph, the extra toe really helps keep the car from being twitchy.

I am going to build my own alignment gauge I think, and see if I can get my buddy to teach me to do it all. He's going to start charging for alignments, but if I can get him a second gauge built, then he will align my car for free whenever I want.

I'll probably work with him to get the car TWEAKED after I do my struts and ALK, then progressively as I get the rest of the suspension done. I think power is done for a while, now it's time for suspension and brakes.

Post by **Legacy777** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 2:36 pm

You don't need camber bolts to tweak the toe in the rear. There are bolts to adjust it.

Camber is what's not adjustable in the rear. However with loosening things up, you can tweak things a little. But if you want "more" camber, you 'll need camber bolts.

Post by **Legacy777** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 2:37 pm

BAC5.2 wrote:Nah, front toe is constantly changing based on speed.

As speed increases, the toe flexes OUT about 1/8". So my 1/8" toe-in becomes 0 toe at speed. 1/8" toe-out becomes 1/4" toe-out at speed.

Under braking, the front flexes IN about 1/8" so my 1/8" toe-in turns into 1/4" toe-in under hard braking, increasing turn-in stability and allowing the front end to bite pretty hard.

The toe in the rear affects how the back of the car behaves. I have 0 toe in the rear, and I will probably keep the rear at 0.

I'll probably keep it at .5 degrees camber until I decide on my suspension upgrade path and I can re-design my whole setup.

Just curious.....how is toe constantly changing with speed? Not saying you're wrong, just would like know what's going on.

NuwanD · Post by **NuwanD** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 3:58 pm

the best analogy i've heard of is to think of each wheel on the long end of a rope... if you power that wheel it will move forward in reference to the rope... if you move forward without powering that wheel it will lag behind

Suspension isn't a rope but it will flex and move about when the wheel is powered or being dragged... that's why a a front wheel drive car will have toe out up front and toe in in the rear from the factory so that when cruising on the highway all the wheels end up with zero toe... the opposite is true for rear wheel drive cars... and awd gets toe in on all corners

However, this generalization does not take into account varying suspension geometries and other stuff like desired handling characteristics

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 5:46 pm

Josh - I never said you needed camber bolts to adjust toe.

As for the toe changing, it's all in flex. Under brake dive, the toe flexes in, under acceleration, it flexes out.

Most people wouldn't notice it, but it's along the same lines as a manual transmission and other minor things. When you can notice the differences, you've got the skill to take advantage of that power.

Post by **Legacy777** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 5:59 pm

Didn't steve ask "Can rear toe even be adjusted with the stock control arms on the AWDs?" You replied "Steve - Yep! You just need some camber bolts, and BOOM, you can dip the rear out. "

But anyway.....

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 6:02 pm

OH! I thought he said Camber, lol. Whoops!

Now I feel dumb

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 10:21 pm

Josh asked the question I was going to. On the fwd car there are cam bolts for the inside control arms to bolt to the crossmember. This (really expensive) bolt would seem to adjust toe ( and possibly cambe to a very small degree) depending on how the cam is turned, but I don't think the AWD has this feature as there are two bolts (one for each arm).

Steve

Post by **Legacy777** » Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:14 am

Hmm.....I wouldn't see why there wouldn't be the same bolt on the AWD cars as on the FWD cars.

Actually yeah it's there. I remember seeing the rubber boot protector on the subframe when I pulled it out of the AWD donor car.

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:50 am

I was under the impression that the AWDs had two bolts as the driveshafts pass through where the middle of the long bolt would be.

Steve

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Performance Alignment...

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