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BAC5.2 wrote:The Whiteline ALK is, basically, the roll center adjuster. It drops the lower control arm a bit and brings it back slightly which increases caster and at the same time lowers the roll moment. An ALK on stock suspension would probably be a really good thing to have, and would make everything a bit better.

ah yes.... a roll center adjuster by any other name....

Nice post Phil, that was WAY informative. Now I want these ALKs

I'd be wary of the ALK. Most of the reviews I've read have been unfavorable.

-Brian

scottzg wrote:BAC- that essay was awesome. I'm wondering though, about all those alphabet performance cars; 2.5rs, prot mp3, civic si, and the like that are factory lowered. Does the factory accomodate for the changed suspension geometry? Do they just increase swaybar stiffness and strut stiffness and call good enough?

Most "ABC" performance cars simply use a different spring setup along with differently valved struts and beefier bars.

Occasionally, with specialty models or trims, the new geometries are well thought out and calculated into design. These cars are the EVO, STi, M3, things like that.

You can ALWAYS tell a Pseudo performance car from a true bred performance car when it comes to handling. Often times, the performance models will handle just as well as the non-performance models. They just look better.

Read magazines about performance cars, and you'll see that they always gripe about the suspension.

I REALLY wish I had the knowledge of our cars suspension to have some RCA's custom machined. That way I could get away with only running a stock front sway bar, and no rear sway bar. That would certaintly make the car more predictable in the dirt with less risk of parts breakage.

There's always the possibility of snapping an endlink or endlink bolt with a super beef rear sway bar. That's not something you want to happen when you are taking a turn at 85mph.

Ryan - Yea, I'm thinking about budgeting for them too. About $200 or so from online dealers. I also want the full STi pink rear link set. That'd be really nice

eastbaysubaru wrote:I'd be wary of the ALK. Most of the reviews I've read have been unfavorable.

-Brian

People give bad reviews about the ALK because they don't understand what it does.

They call it an ALK because it decreses the effect of dive and lift on weight transfer. It cancels out the stock anti-lift and anti-dive geometry, allowing the front end to be more compliant to lift and dive.

Why would you want to make the front end MORE Compliant to lift and dive? Because compliance is related to weight transfer. When compliance is high, weight transfer is low.

The ALK doesn't eliminate lift, it simply relocated some parts (lower control arms) to help the front end be more compliant to these effects.

No effect in a straight line, but rather lateral acceleration is increased. You can put power down earlier coming out of a turn because you won't throw the weight back causing the inside to spin, and you get less brake-induced-oversteer.

You can brake harder, further into the turn, and accelerate sooner. It's called an anti-lift kit because it addresses the stock anti-lift/dive characteristics of the stock geometry.

Plus, increased caster and harder bushings are just cream cheese.

eastbaysubaru wrote:I'd be wary of the ALK. Most of the reviews I've read have been unfavorable.

-Brian

On the contrary, from the info I've read, the ALK is one of the cheap and simple suspension upgrades that actually results in measureable increase in performance. Not simply "it feels better," but it really allows more speed via better handling.

My understanding is that it increases both static and dynamic castor, thereby allowing you to add more throttle earlier in a turn. The term "anti-lift" is somewhat confusing, and it probably causes people to expect somewhat different results.

This item has been on my upgrade list for a while because of the recommendation from a couple highly experienced Subaru guys in my area. I hope to try it, sooner than later.

While it may be beneficial to suspension and handling, a lot of people have complained about the considerable increase in NVH. These complaints have also been from a few highly experienced Subaru guys. What they did say is that if you're going to get it, get the softer one (at least of the two Whiteline ones).

-Brian

People who complain about NVH shouldn't be doing suspension upgrades in the first place. NVH is a by product of better-than-stock performance. Counter NVH with softer bushings, and add slop to what those bushings do.

eastbaysubaru wrote:While it may be beneficial to suspension and handling, a lot of people have complained about the considerable increase in NVH. These complaints have also been from a few highly experienced Subaru guys. What they did say is that if you're going to get it, get the softer one (at least of the two Whiteline ones).

-Brian

I understand and agree. Everyone has to make informed decisions about how they want their car to work, to match the kind of driving expererience they desire. That means understanding the trade off between daily comfort, including NVH, and hardcore performance. That leads me to want to try the ALK with comfort bushings.

On the other hand, I know that I DON'T want to try coilovers with 300lb. spring rate.

To each their own.

You guys are filled with knowledge!

This is my first post on this board and it has made it to page 3 of good information.

Thanks.

It's only the beginning my friend. If you do a search you'll find that there is a wellspring of knowledge on this board. *Most* posts stay on topic and usually are full of good content.

I have noticed and am reading quite a bit lately.

It is funny b/c I bought the Legacy thinking that there wouldn't be much of a following and I would have to learn on my own and experiment with it. But then the day I brought it home I searched and found this site and I am AMAZED and happy that all of you and the person who started this site are so passionate about good CLEAN Subarus!

And thank you to those of you who have given me a warm welcome to the site and have given me the info through PMs on the GC8 Tein fitting into my Legacy. I appreciate it.

Welcome, Shane, welcome!

I've benefited a LOT from this board and I know you will too. Lots of good technical info, like in this thread, along with humor at times that will make you LOL and keep you grinning for quite some time! My IG (ignorance quotient) is getting lower all the time although in many areas it is still high. I've got a bunch of projects on my 93 Legacy that I know I can tackle confidently and intelligently due to the guys and gal(s) on this board. So, stick around, make yourself comfortable, and be sure to post too!

93Leg-c wrote:IG (ignorance quotient) is getting lower all the time although in many areas it is still high.

I think I know one area it's still high

j/k

Hey BAC5.2: No need to apologize for the AWESOME explanation of suspension setup and geometry. As far as I'm concerned, you (and anyone else) can continue posting those kinds of technical information because it's an education in condensed form that would take who knows how long to get elsewhere! I know from the information you posted, it's already given me a better direction on what I'm going to be doing with my Suby!

Yeah, I know one area for sure -- "IG." But I couldn't write "IQ" but maybe IGQ? Nah, that's sounds conceited. IG is close to UG (ugh), maybe even EGG.

are there any other girls on the board?

there's a couple, but dont really post.

There's been a middle school wood-shop teacher's handful, but they've only posted a few times before I scared them off.

Steve

my middle school wood shop teacher smoked the ganja





his name was mr Hardy

Mine apparently used to do live demonstartions of what NOT to do until he ran out of fingers. Just like Z-cars, his first classes were probably his best.

I had him back when In Living Color was on and this guy was like our own Fire Marshall Bill.

Steve

LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING!

LaureltheQueen wrote:his name was mr Hardy

that's awesome

Mr. Hardy. That's creepy. I went to school in Ione, Oregon and had a shop teacher is 6th and 7th grade named Mr. Hardy.
We used to put wood glue and sawdust in his coffee and he would still drink it! It still makes me laugh:) In fact I am laughing now:) Ahh, that is funny. I wish you could all see the images that are running through my head right now:)