legacycentral bbs

One of the insurance companies once told me that when a car is old enough they are allowed to get used parts for it as they can't (supposedly) get newer parts. I don't know how true this is (insurance companies are all filthy thieves) or whether it varies by state, but there's some info for you.

I would definitely argue against trunk repair - the accident damage will definitely speed the onset of ruct vs. a new panel. I would be surprised if a new panel wouldn't be cheaper anyway - do they have illegal immigrants working at the place they got their estimate from? The body shop I went to replaced the hood on my car just because of the leading edge stone damage as they said it was cheaper (it actually saved me money so I could spend it on the rear where it was a little worse than they thought).

Steve

As a parts driver, i often deliver parts to body shops in the area. Speak with a reputable, clean shop, those are the places that usually buy bumpers and more expensive items from the dealer. Bring photos of the damage, and ask the shop to give you an estimate. Go to 3 or 4 shops, and go with the highest estimate, say that's where you probably want to have your car fixed, but you're not sure, so have the insurance company cut the check to you. Subaru has parts for the turbo legacy, in fact, the dealership i work at has 3 turbo front bumpers in stock, and 6 lips. each bumper runs 239 i think, and the lip is 90 or so i believe. then there's the styrofoam part behind the bumper cover, and the metal bumper beam may have damage as well. That's a good $700 at least, plus trunk. Tails are gonna be in the $4-600 range, and then there's labor and paint. I got quoted $489 just to have my rear bumper sanded and repainted when I got hit by a girl in a parking lot.

So, I guess it goes like this. I've been given a check for 1970.80 and the appraiser said that if he has to spend more than that then he'll just total the car. So that's it then folks, it's a dead car. However, if I can swap the engines with some change to spare then I may do that. I'll have to find someone who'll do it though. I'm wondering if it would be better to swap the tranny too or just go ahead and use the standard.

Hmph.



Are you sure you don't want to keep the car? You probably could actually fix it for 2 grand.

Converting your 5-speed L to an automatic would probably be a painful experience. You would probably be better off just using the stock transmission with mechanical empathy and an aftermarket clutch meant for RS-Ts.

Swapping the engine yourself wouldn't be that big a task if you just rent an engine crane.

Can you try to get photographs of the damage?

Buy or rent a cheap engine crane. It's easy if you have the two cars together. I did it by myself in a few days while trying to hide my activities from people who may inform property management and hunting for fittings to cap off unneeded turbo fittings. I also had to finish rebuilding it and had to swap everything off the old engine over.

Actual swap between two cars (like swap the turbo into your N/A and vise versa) could be done in a day with a friend or two properly motivated by beer. Get fuel line clamps and a couple cheap jacks for the transmissions. Getting the turbo to run shouldn't be had from there and you could then junk the original turbo car and pocket the change from your check minus crane rental, miscellaneous tools and beer. Also highly recommended is a cordless impact wrench.

Steve

Just saw Vikash posted nearly the same thing while I was writing. I'd be all up to help you if I lived close or even if I was still unemployed with a little money to spare. I'd just get a better clutch while your at it and maybe do water pump and all that while the engine's out. Get all the parts together and it's no problem. The turbo block I have in now was an auto originally and the only thing I had to change was to use the longer bolts that came with my flywheel. I bitched thw ehole time I was doing it, but when it kicked over on the first turn it was all worth it.

Steve

Hmmm, this swap is temting to try and the whole idea of beer and buds is cool too. God knows I've suffered to get the car. Like I said, if I push the issue I can most likely get my turbo totaled. Either I take the 1.9k and keep the car or total it, take more money and have no car. I'm thinking that I won't get the 3k book value if it's totaled. Probably close to it but not exactly. My whole problem is that I have a pretty paltry set of tools and I'm not totally inept but I'm not an experienced mechanic either. I'll have to look around a bit before I make up my mind. There's no big rush since I won't have the turbo for the meet (unless I can run it like it is ) What really sucks is that all this bs is happening at once so my inclination is to cut and run. I'll have to think on it but thanks for the input though guys.

You don't actually need a lot of tools. My brother and I pulled an engine out of a Legacy in a junkyard with the tools we brought in my backpack (and a little help from the yard's forklift, which substituted for an engine crane).

I think you could buy any tools you need and still save over paying a shop to do the swap. And it's not really that hard to swap engines as long as you're basically ept. It'd be a good way to learn and build confidence.

Why wouldn't you be able to run it as it is at the meet?

What about having it totaled and then buying the wreck back from the insurance company?

Does anybody know about the process you have to go through to buy a car back from the insurance company?

I was speaking about it (R title) to a mechanic yesterday and he said that it was a pain in the butt. He could be tryinf to get me to give him business though.

As far as to why the car can't be run in the meet I would gues it would be because the trunk flops up and down. I have it strapped right now but there is still movement. I don't know if the rules would allow somehting like that in a run.

Another thing I have to think about is having another car around for transportation while these two would be sitting.

Do you have to use the ECU and wiring from the turbo?

He was saying it's a pain in the butt to buy a salvage vehicle back from the insurance company?

Yeah, a flopping trunk might be against the rules... what about unbolting the trunk lid though? Or maybe stuffing deformable fabric or foam in the interface to stop the movement?

The whole swap can literally be done in a day if you've got a couple of people, so backup transportation might not be a big deal.

You would use the turbo ECU but mostly the non-turbo wiring. This is the thread where mTk and I explored it:

http://bbs.legacycentral.org/viewtopic.php?t=2215

What it boils down to is:

- Swap the wiring harness from your non-turbo intake manifold onto your turbo intake manifold.
- Move the sensor and solenoids mounted on the passenger side strut tower over from the turbo to the non-turbo.
- Switch two pins on the ECU's connectors.
- Add a few wires for the strut-tower stuff.

Yeah, he was saying it was tough to buy back the vehicle. He said something about taking pictures and what not. The reason I said he may be trying to get my business is because I think he may be exaggerating how hard it is to make me give up on that ideas and just have the car fixed at his shop, which is freaking Maaco btw.

If I could find people to so the swap in a day I would do it as long as it's a sure thing which it never usually is.

Hm. I wonder what a good source of impartial information about the topic would be.

Yeah, there are no guarantees that it would happen in a single day. No promises, but provided proper planning and prior procurement of parts the probability is pretty good.

There's been a promising development. I hooked up with a mechanic at a Subaru garage locally at lunch who has done a turbo to NA swap. I guess he put a turbo block in an imprezza. He also mentioned that the turbo was had an 4eat. I spoke with him on the phone and he says it's not a big deal to do what I want to do. I need to talk with him face to face but he said that it was somthething that could be done on a weekend. Apparently, he has space at his house and will do the work there. That would be good because that means I'll get a cost break if I use him and his spot. He also has two turbo ECU's to boot, not that I'll need them, but it shows that he has experience with this sort of thing. I'll talk with him and see what he says. If we can set a price for the work then I'll be that much closer to making up my mind. I doubt he'll ask 1900.00 for the job.

That does sound promising.

Would you just pay him to do the whole thing, or would you work with him?

I still think you should consider doing it yourself. Not only would you learn a lot and save money, but you'd also get to be sure everything's done right. I've seen or heard about some really questionable stuff done by shops doing swaps. I know it's certainly possible that this mechanic would do a grade-A job, but... pride of ownership and non-financial motivation go a long way.

**My last post was riddled with grammatical errors, sorry. I'm usually pretty good about that***

I'm thinking it would be a little of both since I don't really know him that well. I'd definitely want to be there for this event so I can lend a hand and maybe get it done for cheap or free and also to make sure it goes well. I'm afraid I can't really do it myself. I don't really have a place to do such a thing. Also, I don't have any help available except Matt and he's usually a pretty busy guy. I still want to help and even do a lot of the work if it will save me money but to do go solo is probably a bad idea at this point. Like I said earlier, I still have to talk to him and see what he says. If I like what I hear then I'll try to work something out. I'm looking to hear him mention the things you've mentioned like the wiring harness and sensor issues (cam angle and pressure sensors, right). After that I'll know at least how knowledgable he is and if it's worth the risk.

Well, by "yourself" I meant what Steve suggested -- yourself and a few friends that you can pay with food and drink. But, yeah, I understand what you mean about not really having a place to do it and not having enough people around. I'd offer to help myself if I could spare the time to drive down to Williamsport. If when I finish my thesis for some reason you still have both cars and want to do the swap, I'll help you then.

Yeah, these are the things I'd hope to hear him mention:

- Exhaust. Obviously you have to switch some part of the exhaust over. I think the turbo and non-turbo exhausts may be the same after the point where the downpipe bolts to the midpipe, so it might be just the exhaust until the downpipe.
- Crossmember. To clear the exhaust you have to switch to the turbo engine crossmember.
- Sway bar. I don't believe the non-turbo front sway bar is compatible with the turbo engine crossmember.
- Pressure sensor, pressure exchange solenoid, and boost control solenoid. All three are mounted onto the same plate on the passenger side strut tower. The two solenoids each need one wire connected to ignition-switched power, and the remaining wires need to be routed to the ECU; 5 pins need to be added to the ECU harness for these.
- Intake manifold harnesses. The engine harness on the intake manifold has to match up with the body harness on the car, so (assuming you use the non-turbo body harness) you need to swap the harness from the non-turbo engine onto the turbo engine.
- Cam and crank angle sensors. The turbo ECU uses pins 1 through 3 on B56 for the cam angle sensor, and pins 4 through 6 on B58 for the crank angle sensor. The non-turbo ECU does the reverse: pins 1 through 3 on B56 are for the crank angle sensor and pins 4 through 6 on B58 are for the cam angle sensor. In practice, you only need to switch the first wires (B56.1 and B58.4), since the other four are connected to each other inside the ECU anyway.
- The 4EAT/5MT issue is a non-issue. The intake manifold harness from your non-turbo should take care of informing the ECU that the car is a 5-speed.
- Radiator and coolant filler tank. You need to decide what you want to do about this stuff, but I think you should swap the whole cooling system over. If for some reason you want to keep your stock radiator, there are two ways to do it. One is to eliminate the coolant filler tank from the intake manifold, just connecting the turbo directly to the water pump instead of going through the tank. The other two fittings won't have anywhere to go anyway if you keep the non-turbo radiator. The other option is to gut the non-turbo radiator cap, and connect its overflow fitting to the small fitting on the back of the filler tank.

That's all I can think of at the moment.

Are you also going to swap the other goodies over? Like the bigger front brakes, the nicer wheels, the thicker rear sway bar, the limited-slip rear differential?

Oh yeah, and the clutch. He and/or you may just be assuming this, but the stock non-turbo clutch probably won't be able to handle the turbo's torque very well.

vrg3 wrote: - Cam and crank angle sensors. The turbo ECU uses pins 1 through 3 on B56 for the cam angle sensor, and pins 4 through 6 on B58 for the crank angle sensor. The non-turbo ECU does the reverse: pins 1 through 3 on B56 are for the crank angle sensor and pins 4 through 6 on B58 are for the cam angle sensor. In practice, you only need to switch the first wires (B56.1 and B58.4), since the other four are connected to each other inside the ECU anyway.

Now here's something I instantly vibed on. No big deal here just some wire swapping. It's been too long since I got to work with processors and all the little mnemonics they use for pinouts. I truly miss it . I always liked working with processors and doing things like snatching programs from the PROMs. .

vrg3 wrote: Are you also going to swap the other goodies over? Like the bigger front brakes, the nicer wheels, the thicker rear sway bar, the limited-slip rear differential?

I already have some pretty nice wheels on my NA. They're 195/65 R15's (I'd have to look at the second number to be sure but it's a non-issue). These wheels have a different offset too so they stand out a little more from the wheel wells, makes the car look more aggressive . Those tires are mounted on a set of proline 5 spoke rims too. As far as the brakes go I still on the fence about that. It's probably something I'd like to do later on. I'm sure it would be interesting trying to brake without ABS. The differential would have to wait and the rear sway bar too. Oh and thanks for offering to help out with the install. It's beyond cool to offer help like that and I appreciate the offer.

evolutionmovement wrote:Just saw Vikash posted nearly the same thing while I was writing. I'd be all up to help you if I lived close or even if I was still unemployed with a little money to spare. I'd just get a better clutch while your at it and maybe do water pump and all that while the engine's out. Get all the parts together and it's no problem. The turbo block I have in now was an auto originally and the only thing I had to change was to use the longer bolts that came with my flywheel. I bitched thw ehole time I was doing it, but when it kicked over on the first turn it was all worth it.

Thanks to you too Steve for offering your help. I'll keep you all posted on what's up with it. If it all falls through for some reason then I'll still try to drive it at the meet for one final hoorah!

Yeah, the electrical stuff will be easy to you. And I'm sure you'd do a better job than almost any mechanic. Actually, you might consider having him not do the electrical stuff at all; he could get the car running with the stock ECU. It won't run well, but it'll be fine to limp home on. I've run my car on several non-turbo ECUs before.

If you already have good wheels then that's cool... I'm a little concerned about the lower offset, though; isn't that bad for the wheel bearings? And couldn't it cause rubbing when you corner hard?

I don't think you'd have trouble controlling the brakes. My car hasn't had functional ABS for nearly a year, and I've got bigger front brakes than stock. I haven't had exceptional difficulty in rain, snow, or ice.

You're welcome for the offer. And I'm totally serious about it. In fact, if we could figure a way out to get the cars down to DC, we could use my parents' garage and my brothers air tools.

Do you have a place to keep the car? Are you just parking both your cars on the street?

If you already have good wheels then that's cool... I'm a little concerned about the lower offset, though; isn't that bad for the wheel bearings? And couldn't it cause rubbing when you corner hard?

Yeah, I've had these wheels on my NA for about a year now and I've had some problems here and there with rubbing on hard bumps and turns. Maybe if I strapped sandpaper on my wheels and went off-roading I could take care of my wheel well rust - j/k. Seriously though, I've been feeling a strange vibration in my NA's front end when I'm doing sharp corners so perhaps that's the wheel bearing going bad. Now that I think about it, it probably what's wrong with it. I was thinking it was something with the power steering (not the turbo issue I had) at one point but a bearing sounds more likely. I'm stuck with the wheels for now though so I'll just deal with it.

Hehehe... that'd be a funny product to sell. Covers you strap onto tires to clean up your wheel wells.

Reminds me of these things I saw on TV... They're basically super-abrasive single-use brake pads; they're marketed as an alternative to expensive and difficult-to-use rotor lathes.

I wonder if you could swap the hubs with good bearings from the turbo to the non-turbo.

I wonder if you could swap the hubs with good bearings from the turbo to the non-turbo.

I don't see why not. I just had another person actually agree to do it for $600.00. It seems like it may be starting to take shape.

$600 labor for the motor swap?

That sounds about right... 10ish hours of work, 60ish dollars per hour. Or something around that.

You could do it with a set of metric wrenches and sockets (deep and regular), breaker bar with adaptor for 3/8", some cheap fuel clamps, vise grips (indespensible), and assorted screwdrivers. At that $600 isn't bad either. As for suspension, etc I'd get an impact wrench (I should sell these things) just in case things don't cooperate though my car has been very easy to work on. Not like the old Subarus or my Datsuns. Shit, I really wish I could give you a hand on this. I still say get a new clutch at least as you have to swap it onto the engine anyway. You can use a 1/2" to 3/8" socket adaptor to center the clutch if you don;t trust eyeballing it.

I forgot about the crossmember - you'll have to jack the car up and and get that from underneath, but it should be easy and give you a chance to really check everything out.

Steve