legacycentral bbs

I can't tell you how many times I've gone and torn things apart looking for a problem, and then found that the problem was one of the parts I removed looking for said problem...

Do you mean the tooth that the crank angle sensor uses to set timing? Or a tooth for the belt?

Glad you fixed it

Yeah we all live and learn.
The tooth for the crank position sensor.
Now the true test iam hittin' the rode for a two hour drive.

Jim

I'd say that was definitely it. Anytime you feel that good about it, that's usually it

Also, ciper, the Haynes mentions that the CEL for the purge valve will come on when the valve sticks in the open or closed position. Granted that's a Haynes manual , but I must be honest and say that I didn't notice hardly any difference in idle when the new one was on... Mine may have failed open...

It must be wrong. The CEL only illuminates when the curcuit is shorted or open. The valve closes when no voltage is applied. Most of the time the failure is from the coil breaking and causing an open curcuit, closed valve.

A cap over the nipple on top of the throttle plate could rule it out, and a resistor in place of the valve would prevent the CEL. The canister is only for evaporated fuel.

I'm bringing this topic back up.

I just did a timing belt on the wagon, and now it won't start. It will crank but won't fire. I do recall turning the crank once with the timing belts off (independent of the cams), but I thought our consensus was that it makes absolutely no difference which stroke the crank is on or anything, as long as you have the marks lined up, you're golden.

This would make sense, because the bottom-end is in the same position one revolution later as it was in the last one, and the cams and valvetrain are the same. So regardless of what stroke the engine is on, as long as everything is lined up, it should work. Right???

Yeah, if the marks line up I can't see how timing could be wrong.

Is it possible this is something dumb? Like maybe you unplugged the camshaft or crankshaft position sensor? Or that you put the wrong cam sprocket on each side or something? Or that you removed one of the sensors but didn't reinstall it?

Do you get a trouble code for either of those two sensors?

I have no trouble codes. I did not remove the cam sprockets.

A couple people told me it could be 180 out if I did that, but I don't see how. The bottom end is in the exact same position once every revolution, and so is the valvetrain. So the way I see it, it doesn't matter whether cylinder #1 was on compression or exhaust. And the cam and crank sensors won't know any difference because they only read things in single revolutions, right? So, the way I see it, my turning the crank once independent of the cams is completely irrelevant as long as I lined up the marks right.

I wonder if it has something to do with that God-forsaken anti-theft system since I left the battery unplugged since yesterday... But it still cranks though...

I don't see how it could be 180 degrees out. I think your reasoning is sound. And to add to it: If there are the right number of belt teeth between the sprocket notches, then they have to be timed correctly, right?

The antitheft system thing sounds plausible, but don't they usually interrupt the starter circuit, preventing cranking at all? Maybe this one's smarter.

Does the Check Engine light come on when you turn the ignition on?

IF you didn't unplug the battery then I wouldn't worry about the anti-theft "thingie".

Wish I could be of more help.

Just to help prove my point, I switched the plug wires, the front ones on the back and vice versa. If it were 180 out and the ignition timing was backwards, that should reverse it. It still did not start.

I also thought the same thing: if the anti-theft had something to do with it, it wouldn't even crank. I wonder if it cuts fuel or spark instead of juice to the starter though?

And yes the CEL comes on when I turn the ignition ON.

And Greg, I DID unplug the battery, it's been unplugged for over 24 hrs.

Don't mix up ignition timing and valve timing... If your valves are opening and closing at the complete wrong part of the cycle, you can't get the engine to run.

Maybe check to see if you're getting spark. Pull one of the plug wires off the plug, stick in an old plug, and rest the body of the plug on the intake manifold or negative battery terminal. You should be able to see the spark while someone cranks the engine.

If the marks are lined up correct, than the valves HAVE to be opening and closing at the right part of the cycle right? That's what I meant about the crank and cams being in the exact same position every revolution...

I think I'm gonna check for spark and fuel tomorrow.

However, let's say that the anti-theft IS responsible for this... What am I supposed to do about it?

I have fuel. I have spark.

Now what?

Hmph.

I don't see how the antitheft system could be preventing the car from starting while still allowing fuel and spark unless it's much more complex than any alarm I've heard of before.

So you have fuel and spark but no burning fuel at all? Like, it doesn't ever even try to catch, and it doesn't backfire?

It doesnt even try to catch, and to be honest, when I release the key, it seems like it kicks back against compression, which would point to the timing being off

I seriously think I'm just gonna rip it back apart and turn the crank 360º. I still think I'm right that it can't be 180 out, but I honestly dunno what else it could be.

It might come down to that ... Just take it back apart, and recheck all of your work if you can't find anything else that it could be.
This is why I like to do a test start with just the belt on the car to see if it runs, but I dont let it run for more than 1 second.

Andrew

Yeah, I think you'll have to take it apart again... not to turn the crank 360 degrees necessarily, but just to check all your work...

The hell is going on here???

I really don't understand what happened, but the whole belt was at least 4 notches ahead of the marks on the sprockets. I swear on my mother's grave that I had everything lined up PERFECT before I put it back together. I don't understand that since if the belt slipped, the belt would be BEHIND the marks on the sprockets.

I tried what you said Andrew, put the belt on and cranked it just 5 minutes ago. No start. Now, by the time I turned the engine around to the next belt revolution (crank up, cams down) the belt was 6 notches ahead.

Can somebody help here??

Could it be the wrong belt for the car or something?

I was thinking the same thing, but how would the marks line up right the first time if that were the case?

I am right though aren't I? Once the belt makes a whole revolution, the mark on the crank and the mark on the belt should line up again exactly?

I think I'm gonna try turning the crank 360º just to eliminate that variable...

Turning the crank 360º did nothing. Still won't start.

So the timing has nothing to do with it apparently. Where else should I start looking?

Since I'm getting spark that means the cam sensor is in order right? I dunno which sensor, cam or crank, controls which parameter, spark or fuel injection.

I just don't understand why I pulled it into my garage running like a top, changed the timing belt and now it won't start.

Any fuses I should be checking?

The number of teeth between the sprockets. If you don't account for subsequent movement when the tensioner is released, the marks will be off. When my T-belt went off I got both fuel and spark. Make sure the sensors are properly connected or don't have grease and shit on them that could possibly impair function.

Steve

I am stupid.

No, I'm retarded.

NO!! My brain is not even functioning!

NO!!! I don't even have a brain!

The mark on the BACK of the crank sprocket is the timing one, not the one on the FRONT.

You'd think someone that had done this successfully twice before would know that...

Purrs like a kitten now... Thanks huck369 for being so awesome as to CALL me on my cell phone to tell me that...

subyluvr2212 wrote:The mark on the BACK of the crank sprocket is the timing one, not the one on the FRONT.

Do you mean you lined everything up with the arrow on the crank sprocket instead of the notch?

Andrew

Yep, you got it.

Huck told me that arrow is only worthwhile on an interference engine like the 97-up EJ22. If you have the arrow pointing right (toward the driver's side), I guess that means both passenger pistons are far enough into the engine that you can turn the passenger camshaft around without hitting anything. Vice versa for the arrow pointing towards the left.

Like I said, I dunno why I did that this time and not the first two times I've done timing belts on these cars