legacycentral bbs

The motorcycle's a sequential box, right?

Steve

Yes, sequential. But dog engaged . There are no synchro's on motorcycles.

Right, but it's a different type of set up than a non-sequential transmission.

Steve

It is, but a collar still has to slide and mate with dog teeth. The engagement is the same, and has similar properties, it's just the method of up and down shifting that's different.

Here is an exploded view of a Bike transmission....

http://www.wootbike.com/images/articles ... sics_1.gif

The collars slide, in series, on the output shaft. On the 2-3 shift, the 1/2 collar pushes forward at the same time as the 3/4 collar pushes forward. The instant the ring is clear of 2nd gear, it is nearly engaging the 3rd gear collar.

Below is a view of a Subaru Dogbox. The only difference, is that you must actually push the collar out of 2nd and push the 3/4 collar into 3rd. It's the same principal. In the motorcycle, it shifts out of 2nd and into 3rd for you, at the same time. In the car, you must do the mechanical engaging and disengaging of the shift collars.

http://www.wrxfanatics.com/uploads/post ... 805149.jpg

Interesting. I always thought the gears were set up differently some how, but all it really is is the shift assembly. So a regular transmission could be converted to sequential, it appears.

Steve

Getting a sequential shifter to work in a Subaru would be difficult.

The way it is setup, there are 3 different shift rods (1/2, 3/4, 5/R). You push, pull, push, pull, push, pull.

Getting it to push, push, push, push, push, would be difficult without modifying the internals of the transmission, at least somewhat.

I'm sure it could be done, but I can't see that there would be a performance benefit other than simply moving a lever forward for each upshift. The internals of the transmission still need to make the same patterns and motions.

I was talking in general, assuming a simple box design with a single output shaft. I don't really see the point on a street car at all anyway.

Steve

Yea, I suppose MOST trannies could be converted with some ghettofab linkage of sorts.

So far, my built 4eat has been good, and it should have no problem when the vf34 is installed and the ecu re- tuned.

Mine was done at www.importperformancetrans.com

The other place is www.levelten.com

A tranny guy in Vancouver says that the older 4eat is stronger than the A/ts in the wrx.

"Ali" whatsis name in California is doing 9s in a wrx with an old 4eat, but "built" at a $25000 ticket

Ordinary hard launches prompt no concerns about a clutch or gear teeth blowing. However, while the shifts are fast at WOT, at part throttle the clunk is noticable. So bad that I had to adjust the exhaust pipe to stop it banging.

they already have a sequential shifter for the wrx, it wouldnt be hard to put in on the legacy. just look at the price list

"coming soon"

It's been that way for more than a year.

azn2nr wrote:they already have a sequential shifter for the wrx, it wouldnt be hard to put in on the legacy. just look at the price list

Like Prodrive's active suspension, too.

Steve

Kind of been rethinking my power and comfort goals. BAC5.2, how much do stonger syncrod trannys and helcial dogboxes run? Also, what are the power limts of each? Thanks

Synchro transmissions, reguardless of gear cut run $3500 for the 1-4 sets, and $650 in labor (if you bring us or ship us a loose tranny).

Straight cut dog runs $5000 for the gears (and required install hardwear), and $750 labor.

Helical cut dog runs $5200 for the gears and goodies, and $750 labor.

On top of those costs, there is about $90 to $100 in misc. install parts, as well as $40 to $50 in fluid.

Power limits? No one has ever broken any of the synchro gearsets, so we don't know.

On the dog? 650whp + nitrous + almost 3 years of professional time attack racing seemed to be the limit for the helical dog. No one has broken a straight cut dog box, and there are teams touting 700+whp on them.

Note: For the synchro sets, the cost of new synchros is not included (should you choose to install new synchro's). The only included synchro is for 3rd gear since PPG does not use the OEM style 3rd gear synchro (as it is notorious for failing).

Note #2: A PPG Synchro set will not fit into a Legacy Turbo case. The synchro engagement design changed. This set will only drop into MY99+ cases.

Note #3: Costs assume the tranny we build is a known good base. If the front diff is blown, or something else is needed, then additional costs will be charged as such.

here is my two cents on this, most of you will say no way but yes way.

i broke every gear in my tranny even the input shaft. 5 times i have opend and put new stuff in the tranny.

what have i learned, change the factory spec oil twice in a year 80w 90, use a wrx shift link with all new rubbers + twm short shifter, never never ever rev in first and drop your clutch like a mad man, burn the clutch at take offs, and dont down shift only if you no how.

it has all most over 400000kms on my last reubild WITH TWICE THE POWER (i say about 300hp but the dyno will tell soon for you all) and the tranny will last for ever, and i dont baby it.

Ok, looks like this is gonna to be a project for the far future instead of the towards the end of the year like I had planned. I'm going to be posting a WTB add for 5-spd transmissions and such but if you guys know of any good places to go for info on the swap and where to get the parts. Feel free to PM me or post it here. I know there is a stick on the swap along with the awd conversion, I was just seeing if anyone did it another way. Thanks

Josh's way is pretty much the only real good way to do it. You could do it differently, but it would probably take longer.

What about ZeroShift engineering? I liked their tranny modification; just was never sure when it would be available. Let me see if I can find the link...

Here we are:

http://www.zeroshift.com/products/index.htm

The zeroshift idea is cool. Will it work? Most of the time. It needs a LOT of work to be a viable manual transmission option. It would only really work for 100% throttle, zero clutch driving. Other scenarios bring up awkward situations for the system.

IIRC, Zeroshift is working solely with OEM manufacturers and it won't be available to the aftermarket, at least not any time soon.

Unfortunately, there is no mod that can be done to turn a regular dogbox into a zeroshift setup

...Dang. Dang dang.

I guess I'll have to start learning about dogboxes then, because I love to shift, and my ultimate goals are in the 11's. And I don't want a trailer queen, I'd drive it everywhere anyway.

Yeah, Zeroshift emailed me back saying check again in a year or so; right now to get a Subaru transmission project started with them would cost in the hundreds of thousands range; with the end boxes costing several thousand apiece.

Freakin' cool idea though. But if I had that kind of cash to spend on a toy, I'd make an aircraft instead.

Dogboxes already cost several thousand apiece.

You can almost do the idea of a zeroshift with a regular dogbox. You just need to slightly lift on each shift.

Oh I know; I was referring to the cost to get them started on such a project (hundreds of thousands)

Oh, I was referring to your "end-box" pricing.

It easily costs gear companies in the hundreds of thousands to get gears made. The act of making the gears doesn't cost so much money. You just hit "print" and let the CNC machine go to town. It's the designing and machine costs that must be recouped.

I haven't dealt with that company for dogboxes, but PPG has a good reputation. It looks like we're going with Hollinger for the dog box in our race car. Quaife also makes a dogbox for the Subys.