legacycentral bbs

A few points.....

I wouldn't mind a 450 hp legacy....not very practical...but cool.

Yes....have multiple cars...no way I'd want to drive my legacy every day.

Gasoline around the world has always been high compared to the US, we're just catching up.

And big oil are absolutely criminals, look into the history of some of these companies, not least of which leaded gas (that they still sell in Africa). It's not about recent China and Indian oil demand, these scumbags have a history of mass murder for money. Good work if you can get it and the states allow it because they have to. Pays well, too. They are the modern day British East India Trade Co.

I would qualify this as human nature. If someone can do something to gain power/wealth/etc without being hassled, they're going to do it vs. taking the "high road" and looking at the possible consequences.

Lead in gasoline may have been something of the past. Regulations caused it to stop being used. In the oil industy, MTBE as an oxygenate is another. It works great, but was found to cause cancer....the gov't banned its use.

One thing I'm currently dealing with is ethanol. There currently aren't any regs for ethanol disposal/spills. So essentually you could dump it on the ground. Obviously this isn't something good to do. If it were 100% ethanol, it would be less of an issue, but it contains 2.5-5% of denaturant (gasoline or natural gasoline). Due to ethanol's affinity for water, typical oil/water separators don't work....so ethanol & denaturant gets discharged into storm water holding ponds.

Like MTBE & lead, this will get more attention, the feds will step in, create a regulation, and a lot of the operators that have just been discharging into a storm water pond will to deal with remediation. So in my mind the high road needs to be taken to try and address this now vs. waiting for the feds to step in with regulations.

Anyway....I'll get off my soapbox.

So are you saying human nature is to be a parasite? Now you're sounding like me. Damn humans!

smh, it doesn't matter if I'm the target market - these cars are dinosaurs and this particular car is the reason new Subarus might as well be anything else as their old values have been supplanted by the superficial 'me too' mainstream. This is a market that hasn't been working for them and likely never will. This is not a car that will sell well, or be projected by marketing to do so in any event, so it's not there to make a buck and the halo effect is negligible. It would have to be priced too far into Nazi car status-symbol territory and very few would pick the Subaru over a BMW or Mercedes. Subaru sold their soul for nothing. There is no target market of consequence for this car. Many people that aren't me might think, "Great! 8 bajillion hp in a Legacy, sweet!", but how many would buy? Not many. You, I guess, if you have the money to throw away. Doesn't seem profitable for Subaru.

I don't know if parasite is the word I'd chose. I think more so path of least resistance...for whatever, but primarily for money/wealth, status, power, etc. This pursuit utilizing least resistance can spawn many different things, for example being a parasite or creating inginuity to "take the high road".

But yeah.....personally I think human society has become so bloated with complete and utter uselessness and lack of common sense that we need a good plague, natural disaster to kill off all the idiots, and hopefully survival of the fittest will ensue weeding out those that really should have died a while ago....but were protected by our sissy nanny laws, etc....blah blah blah.

I'm not disagreeing in any way, but I still think it's kinda funny that we take nearly every thread on this board into cataclysmic subjects of doom and gloom and the death of humankind.

Anyway, smh, you said those three German sedans aren't power-packed heavy pigs...

The M3 and C63 weigh in at something like 3700 lbs, and the S4 weighs in at almost 3900 lbs.

Compared to their 80s and 90s counterparts, they're obese to the point of hospitalization.

The douchebags that buy these things want 50,000 vagina-massagers in the seats and 50,000 airbags to protect them from stuff they could easily avoid if they had any driving skills whatsoever. AND... on top of it all, they still want them to go REALLY FAST ZOMG!!!1! so they can impress all their douchebag friends. So they have to keep making them heavier, and have to keep throwing bigger and more powerful engines in them to haul all that weight around.

So, smh, these cars really do indeed make no sense. Period. Ask anyone that owns one why they actually NEED it, and not a single one will be able to give you a truly valid reason. I will bet my last penny on it.

Now, I understand this is a capitalistic society, and that if you have the legitimate(ish) means to buy something you want, you have the right as an American to buy it. I'm not suggesting by any means we take that away. That would be communism, and we all know how well that works.

Also, if you really do enjoy such things for their aesthetic pleasure and not just because everyone else is doing it, then that's okay in my book too. Such people are few and far between, but they, if anyone, deserve those opportunities.

But there's no such thing as a free lunch. A price will be paid for this nonsense, and a force higher than us (not necessarily divine, but maybe cosmic, or at least natural) will be collecting the fee pretty soon.

Now, back on topic. I, as always, agree with Steve. Subaru is venturing into a market they don't belong in and cannot succeed in. And this REALLY FAST ZOMG!!!1! Legacy idea is writing on the wall as far as I'm concerned.

DerFahrer wrote:I'm not disagreeing in any way, but I still think it's kinda funny that we take nearly every thread on this board into cataclysmic subjects of doom and gloom and the death of humankind.

Anyway, smh, you said those three German sedans aren't power-packed heavy pigs...

The M3 and C63 weigh in at something like 3700 lbs, and the S4 weighs in at almost 3900 lbs.

Compared to their 80s and 90s counterparts, they're obese to the point of hospitalization.

The douchebags that buy these things want 50,000 vagina-massagers in the seats and 50,000 airbags to protect them from stuff they could easily avoid if they had any driving skills whatsoever. AND... on top of it all, they still want them to go REALLY FAST ZOMG!!!1! so they can impress all their douchebag friends. So they have to keep making them heavier, and have to keep throwing bigger and more powerful engines in them to haul all that weight around.

So, smh, these cars really do indeed make no sense. Period. Ask anyone that owns one why they actually NEED it, and not a single one will be able to give you a truly valid reason. I will bet my last penny on it.

Now, I understand this is a capitalistic society, and that if you have the legitimate(ish) means to buy something you want, you have the right as an American to buy it. I'm not suggesting by any means we take that away. That would be communism, and we all know how well that works.

Also, if you really do enjoy such things for their aesthetic pleasure and not just because everyone else is doing it, then that's okay in my book too. Such people are few and far between, but they, if anyone, deserve those opportunities.
.

Sorry, I dont equivocate money to douchebags.

Thats a stereotype thats BS, sure some are, but I dont believe they all are. Now those who make their money, generally arent, those who Inherit there money, are more likely.

Okay, so maybe they are heavy... BUT I think of heavy pig as a 750li, an Audi S8 or A8L, or S60 AMG.

So yeah theyre heavy, but they are still sports cars.

And they certainly arent Nazi cars.

I won't comment on the whole society thing but I will say one thing....

EVERY accident I have been in or my friends/family have been in have been a result of someone else's inability to drive. If you've ever been in a high speed collision or know someone close who has, all this bitching and moaning about extra airbags and safety would cease. Yeah if I have to pay a little more at the pump for a heavier car that will keep me alive when some idiot crosses the yellow line at 50+ mph so that I can come out of that crash without being dead or a parapalegic, then yes the extra money and weight is worth it.

Yes I drive an older Subie that only has a front airbag, but I am tall and my seat is positioned such that my head is beside the B-pillar (otherwise my legs physically would not have room) and my worst fear is a side impact and that I would end up with a head injury that would void the 4.5 years that I spent sacrificing everything for an engineering degree and that time and money investement would be killed in a single accident because of some shmuck.

I'm in full agreement that most cars are too heavy, but it's not just because of the safety stuff. So let's just leave that part of the arguement out of it. You want a lightweight car that gets good gas milage and doesn't have the safety gear - buy a F'ing Kia. There ARE options out there for those who feel safety and luxury don't matter.

Ask yourself, how much longer is each year's car than the last. What is now considered a compact sedan used to be considered a full size sedan 10 yrs ago.



And for the record, I would love to have a 400+ hp stock Legacy .

Performance and economy can coexist at the expense of safety. Some of us would make that sacrifice were there the opportunity, but there isn't at nearly any price point. Kias are junk, there's no reason the theoretical car I'm talking about should be built like shit. Heavier doesn't equal safer - mass x velocity. Hit a tree with a heavier vehicle and that's just that much more force that needs to be dissipated. A heavy car hits a light car head on. Now the force is equal for both vehicles. The lighter car loses because it the unnecessarily large force is further outside its design parameters (or the heavier vehicle was a truck, which also directs the force higher up than the car's lower crumple zones were designed for). Just because the lighter car absorbs the hit more like a mattress for a fist doesn't mean the fist is impervious to damage when hitting something solid. If more people drove intelligent (light) cars that met crash standards for their class, drivers would be safer. Buying a heavy car to protect yourself from heavy cars is a never ending arms race.

Heavy vehicles are preferred by people who feel they have no control over the world and that things are unavoidable. I've never had to survive any collisions since I've avoided plenty altogether by driving small, nimble vehicles. Collisions are not a guarantee, gas mileage and a fun factor are something I'd see every time I drove. In the event of a collision with one of these heavy vehicles, I'd rather be theoretically dead in a small car than injured in a heavy one. Save me the trouble of having to finish the job.

You love life and worry about losing it, I take it, great, there are plenty of cars out there that strive to be safe. Me, I'm ready to go anytime, not in the least worried about it, but there aren't any cars for me being built anymore. I suppose I could slip in a bathtub like my grandmother did, but I still practice good hygiene in spite of the great personal risk. That's just me - I'm a loner, a rebel. Huh, I guess that's it, then - maybe there's not much market for the cars I want either. Damned Rolling Stones were right.

My point about heavy cars vs light cars in regards to safety was addressing the implication you were making that they are heavy because of the added safety features. Your above arguement is just heavy = bad, however, my point was that heavy + safety = good.

If you want perfomance with light with minimal safety, then get a Miata. My point is that there are options, you may not like the styling but the options are there.

Finally, I do live my life ready to go at any time - when that calls comes you can't put it on hold. And yes, I sincerely and deeply love my life, and yes, I don't want to lose it. But if we're going to discuss risk taking, then all I have to say is that I do solo winter backpacking in high mountains, solo climbing on occasion, winter lake kayaking, and occasionally race the car on deep back roads - my point here is that there is a difference between taking calculated risks and leaving yourself vunerable to a risk that can be minimized.

The topic made me think of this car:

http://www.perrinperformance.com/pages/show/32

Which is in our shop right now because the wiring is a total clusterfuck. Hopefully we'll have it running and on the dyno tomorrow.


oh and by the way I have a fun new job. I guess I could take some pictures or video at some point.


Anyway there's no way in hell Subaru would make and sell a 450hp Legacy.

DerFahrer wrote:I'm not disagreeing in any way, but I still think it's kinda funny that we take nearly every thread on this board into cataclysmic subjects of doom and gloom and the death of humankind.

Hey....it wouldn't be any fun if we didn't

jamal wrote:The topic made me think of this car:

http://www.perrinperformance.com/pages/show/32

Which is in our shop right now because the wiring is a total clusterfuck. Hopefully we'll have it running and on the dyno tomorrow.


oh and by the way I have a fun new job. I guess I could take some pictures or video at some point.


Anyway there's no way in hell Subaru would make and sell a 450hp Legacy.

You know it's interesting.....I've heard from multiple people, and witnessed stuff that has come out a shop in the PNW that the wiring is completely fubared, and/or other random weird things have occurred.

I find it rather interesting......

The Miata is a poor option - cramped, heavy for its size with the newer ones, can't carry shit, lousy gas mileage, poor rigidity (not a safety concern - I care about handling and can't stand shaking and rattling). The amount of fabrication it would require to fix all its problems would be too much - likely rivaling my Cessna project (removal of all door guts and convertible top, welding doors and connecting shell front to rear with a structural beam, removing passenger seat and modifying structure to fit it behind the driver's seat as a 1+1, covering over passenger space with hinged sheet metal cover to make the space a second trunk, removal of windshield and pillars, covering driver's side with teardrop airplane canopy, fabbing new small windshield area from safety glass to meet canopy, building sliding mechanism for canopy, extending rear of vehicle by several feet and tapering as part of entire aero make-over, covering undercarriage, wheel openings and fairing them in to rest of body, etc.).

What I'm talking about is a real car, not a toy. A 4-seater, like my old GLs that weighed less than all but the earliest Miatas. Put a modern DI 2.0L in it, improve the aero, improve the braking, and add some spot welds to a chassis that's actually galvanized and I'll pay what I paid for my Mazda. Hell, I'm seriously considering buying an old '84, getting the wagon going again as a back up, and selling the boring, overweight Mazda to someone who actually thinks 30 mpg is good.

Nazi cars ftw!

Well, Mr. Sunshine,

Not all of us are going to go and build our own cars now are we? lol

And Miatas are fun, I got to test drive one at work... seemed pretty cool to me...

Unfortunately... i got layed off yesterday... damn

They are fun, but still rooted in dinosaur thinking and too impractical for me. Mazda should build something like a 3 on the Miata platform, but they'd probably make it too heavy.

Sorry you got laid off, I've been there plenty of times myself, which is another reason I think big engine cars are stupid - you never know when something like that will happen, but you'll still need to get around and you're still need to pay for the overpowered car while money gets tighter. Selling it is usually a bad option as well, since these fashion vehicles tend to lose value so quickly that you're soon upside down and you can't afford to sell it or keep it. That this is happening to thousands of SUV drivers now makes me smile.

Legacy777 wrote:You know it's interesting.....I've heard from multiple people, and witnessed stuff that has come out a shop in the PNW that the wiring is completely fubared, and/or other random weird things have occurred.

I find it rather interesting......

The wiring was connected right, just not done very well and shoved under the carpet in the passenger footwell. So practically every connection is getting re-soldered. Also there are about 3 extra catch cans I should pull off.

Oh, and no work got done on it today.

555BCTurbo wrote:

smh0101 wrote:I agree with subieluvr. (sorry not used to der fahrer.

I'm seriosly considering getting an Acura RSX as my reliable daily driver and making my turbo the performance car...

Those RSXs get darn good mileage in a nice little car.

You just come into some $$$$?


Those suckas are expensive!

+1

ride your bike, get healthy.
save cash

ive noticed many people talking aobut subaru and "image" like it was a new thing. when you think of subaru there are really two times in recent history that subaru has sort of fallen on their face. first big commercial failure was of course the svx (remember recent history) somewhere some subaru exec said "hey lets make a car that has a unique sporty look but is too slow to keep up with its direct japanese competition due to its massive weight. hey lets also load it up with luxury features to price it out of entry level range for this market. oh and lastly lets offer it with only an automatic transmission so that we can further the luxury feel while continuing to push it further away from the performance car initially concieved." what did they get? they got a car that they made a lot of parts for but could not really ever sell as well as say the 300zx or the rx-7 or (referring to the pre 93 mostly) toyota supra. most of which put up similar if not slightly lower horsepower numbers. subaru became cautious and went on to sell what worked. legacys and imprezas.

then in more recent years there was the nostalgia image they wanted to recapture with the brat... um i mean the baja. which was an easy thing for subaru to make. cut the wagon off the outback wagon. simple. guess what most people who bought them would say "i should have bought the wagon" there was really nothing worng with the baja. in fact there is sorto of an unnoficial waiting list of people who want one used at my dealership and i would guess many others as well. the image factor was still there... its a truck... not a wagon. notice all the crossover suvs out there that look shockingly like station wagons. hmm. why are they not called wagons or worse minivans? but a truck. that says manly testosterone grunting and spitting as i fly all four wheels spinning out of a deep mud pit somewhere in the middle of nowhere with only my truck and my wits (and my gps and my buddies winch when i get stuck). its all an image thing.

some may even say that the justy was cut as an image boost (aside from it being pricier than competition and a relativly sh*tty car made for them by suzuki) and that the only reason the tribeca is around was to get a piece of the suv image pie.

point is, subaru IS concerned about image. they want people to think that they are upscale, and competative with all the european manufacturers. I sat through a subaru "image" meeting once even. in the meeting they put up a picture of a bmw, volvo, mercedes, and subaru and asked us "which one is the most expensive?" the answer ? THE SUBARU. they want to be more expensive. otherwise there would be no such thing as an STI with nav, heated seats, and suede leather.

whats ultimately sad is that despite wanting this image of upscale and expensive image, they already have a "green" image. between their ties with many different outdoor clubs and their zero landfill production plant in lafayette IN. and thier partial zero emission engines (most of which are in CA or MA but not all) they already have an environmentally friendly image despite averaging like 25 mpg according to the epa. Im not saying thats bad but its not unbelievable either. maybe thats why the turbodiesel WILL be coming to the us. maybe thats why they SHOULD bring the r1e to this country (w/ AWD of course) and maybe thats why they shouldnt put this 3.7l turbo into production.

BUT, Id LOVE to drive one. i would even put up with the jagoffs that would buy them and have me service them. ultimately it comes down to what image they want and what they have.