Thoughts on Compression Ratios? And CR of some common builds

Heads, valves, pistons, rods, crankshaft, etc...

Moderators: Helpinators, Moderators

Matt Monson
quasi-mod-o
quasi-mod-o
Posts: 2574
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2003 8:24 pm
Location: Ghetto Garage, CO, USA
Contact:

Post by Matt Monson »

smh0101 wrote:
Dave was telling me how on 25lbs of boost with a t3/t4 turbo on a 2.2L w/ Legacy RS Heads he was only dynoing at about 260 wheel... well I think that was when he had stock pistons... so a super low comp ratio probably killed him... he also had a standalone
That was those heads and in particular the cams within them. The CR didn't cause that. Just look at Xephyr's old threads. He was making more than 50 more whp than that with a similar turbo with a CR in the low 7's with different heads. You really have ZERO empirical evidence to back up your claim that CR caused that.

As for the 9:1 thing? Can't be that high since Subaru did it from the factory on a number of their mid to late 90's turbo cars, including the Foresters and Legacies. ;-)
1974 Porsche 914 Cam Am Limted Edition AKA the Bumble Bee
1973 Porsche 914 2.0 l -Suby swap pending
1968 Porsche 911t survivor 47k original miles
2000 2.5RS daily driver.
1999 2.5RS w/ 50+ extra whp
Suby Hai!
SLODRIVE
Third Gear
Posts: 662
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:27 am
Location: Colorado, north of Highway 52
Contact:

Post by SLODRIVE »

log1call wrote:When you raise the compression the thermal efficiency goes down. When you raise the compression so much you have to back off the advance then the volumetric efficiency goes down. When you lessen the combustion chamber size you get less air/fuel mix in there. It's been proven to be best to have as larger combustion chamber as possible with as higher compression(courtecy of the turbo) as can be run with as much advance as possible gives the best power and life to the engine. Raisnig he compression ratio negates the advantage of having a turbo.

Those are factors that effect power.

Reliabilityis a different matter but it's influence by most of those factors as well.

Subaru(and all the other manufacturers) know quite a bit about these things.
Sorry...but there's a lot of false in the above post.

-Timing and volumetric efficiency are totally unrelated. VE is a factor of how much of the mixture fills the cylinder...timing is NOT a factor in this regard.

-The size of the combustion chamber also has no effect on cylinder filling...that has to do with port sizing/shape, combustion chamber shape, valve timing and intake/exhaust manifold design.

I also find it funny that some of you are arguing about what the best comp. ratio is for turbos...as if there's only one number. There's soooo many factors that should be accounted for to determine this...like vehicle weight, gearing, desired fuel, engine displacement, desired power band/usage, etc. There's plenty of very well sorted-out, street driven turbo cars with compression ratios ranging anywhere from 7.5:1 all the way to 11:1. As the compression ratio goes up, tuning becomes more critical for sure, but the upshot of a higher C/R is that the car becomes more drivable, thanks to more torque when off-boost.
http://www.slodriveracing.com
-92 SS 5MT- EJ20H swap, Haltech standalone ECU, TD04, FXT TMIC, 3" exhaust, STi/AGX struts, JDM 5-speed, 4.111 LSD rear, Blitz EBC, etc.
-'93 L Wagon - Pink Roll Cage - "Dirty Leg"
-And more!
evolutionmovement
Knowledgeable
Knowledgeable
Posts: 9809
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2003 11:20 pm
Location: Beverly, MA

Post by evolutionmovement »

Even better is DI. Makes running high CR with turbo much safer. Come on, Subaru, dammit!
Midnight in a Perfect World on Amazon or order anywhere. The first book in a quartet chronicling the rise of a man from angry criminal to philanthropist. Midnight... is a distopic noirish novel featuring 'Duchess', a modified 1990 Subaru Legacy wagon.
All_talk
Third Gear
Posts: 613
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2004 5:14 pm
Location: Thorp (Ellensburg), WA
Contact:

Post by All_talk »

log1call wrote:When you raise the compression the thermal efficiency goes down. When you raise the compression so much you have to back off the advance then the volumetric efficiency goes down. When you lessen the combustion chamber size you get less air/fuel mix in there. It's been proven to be best to have as larger combustion chamber as possible with as higher compression(courtecy of the turbo) as can be run with as much advance as possible gives the best power and life to the engine. Raisnig he compression ratio negates the advantage of having a turbo.

Those are factors that effect power.

Reliabilityis a different matter but it's influence by most of those factors as well.

Subaru(and all the other manufacturers) know quite a bit about these things.

Thermal efficiency increases with mechanical higher compression (see chart below). Ignition timing has little effect on volumetric efficiency, its more the other way around, the better the VE the less advance you need because a full cylinder burns faster than a less full cylinder.

I will agree that the factory engineers know quite a bit about these things.

Image

Like every thing else in engine performance compression ratio is a compromise and what’s “best” covers a broad range. In general a lower CR is more forgiving and requires a less precise tune and it may also provide more flexibility in tuning.

For me, off boost and transitional performance is very important in a street car. And a street car that will be used year round in all conditions will by nature have a more conservative tune. I believe that relatively high CR and lower boost are a better option for a street car. My build (which seems to be taking a lifetime to complete), will be 9:1 and stroked to 79mm. I’m shooting for full boost by 3000RPM with about 20psi max (max boost will ultimately be limited by detonation on pump gas).

Just some thoughts,
Gary
No matter how broke I am... I always seem to find two cents.
93forestpearl
Fifth Gear
Posts: 3043
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 9:14 pm
Location: Twin Cities, MN

Post by 93forestpearl »

After driving the old setup for two years, and some stock S's and WRX's, I prefer power a little bit later. In my opinion, the VF11 and TD04 come on too early. It was more challenging to be easy on gas with something that spooled so damn fast.

My motor with the 22T heads was snappier off-boost than my N/A motor ever was, but there was a 200k mile disparity there, lol. I'll be at about 8.0:1 which will be fine by me. I like a nice smooth progression of power, which will be nicer than what I had because the whallop of torque in the midrange then a lack of balls up top makes the car harder to drive fast. I had to short shift the damn thing before 5900 rpm, which was really annoying.

I feel a boost threshold of about 2500 rpm coupled with a full spool by 4000-4500 and rapping it out to 7000 rpm with nice top end makes for a nice driving, easily modulatable power band.



Its all just preference.
→Dan

piddster34 at h0tma1l d0t c0m
evolutionmovement
Knowledgeable
Knowledgeable
Posts: 9809
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2003 11:20 pm
Location: Beverly, MA

Post by evolutionmovement »

Going from the N/A to turbo block N/A, I felt almost no difference in power until higher rpms. The lower compression engine started to roll over and die over 5k.
Last edited by evolutionmovement on Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Midnight in a Perfect World on Amazon or order anywhere. The first book in a quartet chronicling the rise of a man from angry criminal to philanthropist. Midnight... is a distopic noirish novel featuring 'Duchess', a modified 1990 Subaru Legacy wagon.
log1call
Second Gear
Posts: 390
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:22 am

Post by log1call »

Yeah ok guys, I concede that volumetric efficiency was a bad choice of words. I meant overall efficiency more.

Thermal efficiency is to do with pressure which isn't just compresion ratio in this case and my point was that too much compression pressure will cause heat in the pistons. My comments were in reply to the question about whu the rings and bearings may not last long.

We can, as has been suggested retune our motors as we wish. The designers at subaru however have developed motors to a very fine degree to give a high performance whilst retaining both reliability and durability. As we modify any one factor the effect is compounded by other conciderations which can throw the entire design criteria out. The line between reliability, durability and disaster is very. very fine.

That's my observations anyway.
206er
Fifth Gear
Posts: 2590
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2003 4:24 pm

Post by 206er »

what about the dynamic compression ratio? isn't that a more meaningful number than static CR albeit harder to calculate? even if you get the same static CR from 2 different builds cylinder pressure may not be the same because of cam profiles. i have not seen dynamic CR discussed much.
1994 Touring Wagon: ruby mica, 5mt swapped
cj91legss
Fifth Gear
Posts: 6322
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:17 am
Location: Lakewood, Wa 98439
Contact:

Re: Thoughts on Compression Ratios? And CR of some common bu

Post by cj91legss »

Bringing up an OLD thread here, Anyone know what the ratio would be for 22T block with OEM HG and 20H heads?
91 L-TW Wagon with a full Swap -RIP
92 SS Prefaced, GD dash swapped, 22T/205 Hybrid 20 psi - BEAST!
93 SS Bone Stock Gone!
94 TW Bone Stock Gone!
91 SS 4EAT Sold!
98 LGT 4EAT
98 LGT Wagon 4EAT
smh0101
Fifth Gear
Posts: 3056
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:56 am
Location: Orlando, FL

Re: Thoughts on Compression Ratios? And CR of some common bu

Post by smh0101 »

OLD Thread lol :)

I have an excel spreadsheet somewhere that I can calculate it with. I'll check on my other computer once I get home.
~Spencer
94 Legacy Turbo (550 Robtune/ej20h v2 Sti RA drivetrain)
94 Legacy Ti Wagon (5mt ej22e)
91 rhd Legacy GT Wagon (factory 5mt, ej20g)
93 rhd Legacy GT type S2 Sedan (4eat, ej20g)
91 rhd Legacy Ti Type S 1.8
03 Lincoln LS V8 Sport
08 300 SRT8
cj91legss
Fifth Gear
Posts: 6322
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:17 am
Location: Lakewood, Wa 98439
Contact:

Re: Thoughts on Compression Ratios? And CR of some common bu

Post by cj91legss »

Thanks man
91 L-TW Wagon with a full Swap -RIP
92 SS Prefaced, GD dash swapped, 22T/205 Hybrid 20 psi - BEAST!
93 SS Bone Stock Gone!
94 TW Bone Stock Gone!
91 SS 4EAT Sold!
98 LGT 4EAT
98 LGT Wagon 4EAT
mike-tracy
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 5000
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:52 am
Location: Des Moines, Wa

Re: Thoughts on Compression Ratios? And CR of some common bu

Post by mike-tracy »

CJ here's a matrix of blocks and heads, done by Marnix on Nasioc:

http://www.b4et.com/docs/cr_matrix.pdf
1992 Legacy SS 5mt, build in progress
Josh Colombo wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2002 10:23 am Wait....I'm confused now.
Post Reply