Non turbo engine build

[92ColoradoTurbo]

I'm all for turbo's and how much power they supply, but this caught my attention, I'm definatly intrigued! Just make sure to snap a picture of the guys face when you spank his wrx with your old school n/a subie ;D Good Luck!

[fre3k5h0w]

Thanks Mike Tracy for that thread, that is cool, believe me I wouldn't mind trying that if I fail at building a screamer...I saw another turbo build on the cheap from kookookachew, that was a different altogetherbuild, he even welded his rear diff gears and converted to rwd. I bet that was fun while it lasted.

Spanking wrx's on the straights, cornering like a miata and screaming like a banshee is what I want to do, just so used to building hondas that whooped on v8's were the things I was doing with my friends since I could turn a wrench..old habits die hard and eventually ill try a turbo build. I have only driven in a few cars with turbos, my work truck is a 2003 f250 turbo diesel.

[fre3k5h0w]

Pulled the heads off the 90 22e block this weekend and got them cleaned up, removed the rocker assembly
Cams and hlas. For 292k they weren't so bad it only had one shriveled exhaust valve on #4. Unfortunately I noticed a small crack on bottom of the spark plug tube, seems a plug was cross-threaded at one point and a metal thread in insert was tapped too deeply. Damn....we I will see if it can be repaired but I think the head is scrap-worthy after seeing that.

But on a good note the cams and rockers cleaned up pretty well and will be getting
Sent to delta and cryo-treated after I get them back. Going to bleed the hlas and store them. I read up
A bit on the assembled megasquirt 2 (3.0), it sounds pretty neat but I'm tuning ignorant, said I would have to run a map sensor and possibly delete my cam trigger? Weird..anyone have any experience with these things or any other ems units.

[Legacy777]

You should be able to find someone on here that has a 22e head to replace your existing one.

Do you have a local source for cyro treating?

I'll share my experiences with tuning and EMS's. The piggy back EMS's like perfect power 6 allow you to tweak the signals going to the stock ECU and trick it so it runs with larger injectors or different sensors (like the MAF sensor). However some ECU's don't respond well to the piggy back EMS's. Stand alone EMS's like the megasquirt, Link, etc can require a lot more setup and configuration, and any time you change anything it may require tweaking the tune. If you have a local tuner and the money & time a good stand alone setup can provide good power gains while maintaining normal drivability. Some stand alone EMS's like Megasquirt are budget systems and while they may run the engine things like idle control and some of the stock ECU functionality may be lost.

Something like the Robtune which has been setup for the turbo legacy is the best option for the turbo guys because it is a repogrammed overseas ECU to use specific hardware and provides good power gains for pretty much plug & play type mods. I don't know of anything currently out there like that for the non-turbo engines.

I am running a Link stand alone EMS. While I like the ECU and the capabilities it has, it has not been without issues. I've gone through two tuners in Texas (one in Houston and one in Dallas) before I drove the car to California to be tuned because the tuners here did not know all the in's and out's of the ECU. Since rebuilding the engine (changine compressure ratio & cams) it needs to be retuned, so as you can see going stand alone can be frustrating if you don't have good local tuner support.

[fre3k5h0w]

Wow 2 tuners, is the link system that uncommon? Where did you go in dallas?

I have only seen a couple of review-like posts about them, I'm interested in the megasquirt because it is a budget type of build but general consensus is the same on it, some have issues, some love them and some don't mind spending on like an aem or other top shelf standalones out there. I'll have to call them either way for specifics anyway.

I work at a heat/cryotreating shop, we make the machines and treat a lot of different parts with them in our shop. Got lots of contracts with different industries.

[86BRATMAN]

It's not uncommon for megasquirt to run only off a crank sensor, if I'm not mistaken you'll have to change to the newer 32 point subaru crank sprocket.

[fre3k5h0w]

It's not uncommon for megasquirt to run only off a crank sensor, if I'm not mistaken you'll have to change to the newer 32 point subaru crank sprocket.

Oh ok, is that crank sprocket from the phase 2 sohc ej motors? I saw that thin steel wheel on diyautotunes website said that would be used for the cam sensor I think, I'm not sure how big that wheels is, looks like it would be about four inches in diameter. Might be for other applications though I don't see where it could be used on these motors, unless mounted behind the cam sprocket.

[86BRATMAN]

Yeah, it's on most phase 2 engines, there are some that still run the old style, it's kinda hit and miss untill around 05/06 for the crank sprocket.

It has been a while since I looked into megasquirt, I think that one is used with the Ford edis, I could be wrong though. There is some pretty good info on megasquirt and subarus on rs25.com

[Legacy777]

Wow 2 tuners, is the link system that uncommon? Where did you go in dallas?

I have only seen a couple of review-like posts about them, I'm interested in the megasquirt because it is a budget type of build but general consensus is the same on it, some have issues, some love them and some don't mind spending on like an aem or other top shelf standalones out there. I'll have to call them either way for specifics anyway.

I work at a heat/cryotreating shop, we make the machines and treat a lot of different parts with them in our shop. Got lots of contracts with different industries.

The issue is not that either tuner could not tune the Link, they just were not familar enough with the software to know exactly how all the options and transient tuning functions work. As long as you can tune, almost anyone can do a reasonable job on the main fuel & timing table. It's all the other stuff that you really need to know about to properly setup the ECU.

Enginelogics, the tuner in Houston did a basic fuel & timing setup. There were some fueling, idling and just general engine operation they really didn't address. Whether they didn't know about it, or just did a piss-poor job of it, I don't know. I went to drive the car home and it would stall when the AC was on. Hell I could even fix that....which I did.

AWD Tuning is the tuner in Dallas that did the second round of tuning. Keith told me flat out that he was not familar with the software, so I don't have anything bad to say about them. He did a good job of fine tuning the fuel map and improving the overall drivability of the car. However, again due to his lack of knowledge of the tuning system and software and wanting to have the ECU setup properly I decided to drive the car to California to have Fine Line Imports in Santa Rosa, CA tune the car. They are Link's primary US distributor & tuner.

To give you an idea of how much power you can gain with a good tune, here are dyno plots from Enginelogics after the first tune.

http://www.main.experiencetherave.com/s ... _dyno1.jpg
http://www.main.experiencetherave.com/s ... _dyno2.jpg
http://www.main.experiencetherave.com/s ... _dyno3.jpg

Here are dyno plots from Fine Line Imports

http://www.main.experiencetherave.com/s ... yno_plots/

There are a variety of dyno plots there, the first is the baseline vs tuned on 91 octane, 91 vs 93 octane, and then 91 vs other models on their dyno as a reference. It made very close to what a stock STi makes on their dyno.


I have been interested in finding a good cyro treating shop. The place I used before in the Seattle area closed, and I haven't really looked to see if there's a good one in Houston. I know that the deep cryo treating process needs to be done properly and I'm a little leary of finding a fly-by-night shop to do it when they may not fully understand the process or how to operate the equipment.

Do you guys have a website for the shop?

[Alphius]

RE: MegaSquirt chat

Modern version of MegaSquirt are fully capable of interpreting the stock 6/7 cam/crank wheels. For a MS standalone install, I personally would go one of two ways:

1. DIYAutoTune.com DIYPNP N76 kit, this would be easiest and cheapest but is lacking some features like gear-based boost targets and more advanced features. This is because it is based on an older firmware.

2. DIYAutoTune.com DIYBOB and MS3/MS3X setup, this is the latest and greatest and is several hundred dollars more expensive.

With any MegaSquirt option you will be losing the MAF and needing to add an Intake Air Temperature sensor, as the MS is a speed-density setup. There is MAF support, but only in older firmware versions and it's really inferior to MAP anyway. With either option you would be building your own ECU and breakout board, both options will plug directly into the stock engine harness. You will need a wideband O2 sensor for any standalone ECU.

The really nice thing about a standalone is that you can then use any engine hardware from any generation of Subaru and make it work. 22t block with WRX heads/intake manifold/crank sensor and all WRX sensors, no problem if you get the right plugs on your engine harness.

Source: I have built and road tuned several MegaSquirt ECUs for different cars. I have also hand built ECU harnesses for swaps, stripped and merged harnesses for LSx V8s and other swaps and advised several people on what to buy and how to make run MS setups.

[fre3k5h0w]

cryosystems.com josh. The website kind of sucks,the company is developing a new one. We have some crazy tempering and hold programs with -300 soaks with less than 2 degree deviations, state of the art stuff..I don't know a lot of specifics on these recipes but I'm sure they can handle what you would need. I'm the lead welder/fabricator here so I couldn't set you up for any real knowledge, unless you want some custom fabrication done here...

That's what I meant by uncommon not a tuner screwing your stuff up, I have been to awdtuning shop, very nice place the guys there know what they are doing. Just wondering about it, there is a couple specialty tuners in el Paso too special vehicles is one that does some high powered race porsches and a few 1000 HP mazdas and v8's.

Thanks for the info alphius and josh. I will comb thru this stuff soon...

Those dyno sheets are pretty impressive josh, your 20 year old car would fly if it had wings..I can make you some wings if you would like..lol

[fre3k5h0w]

Ok I just went on to diyautotunes website to look at diypnp unassembled 76 pin kit, I wouldn't be done with that kit right, I would need to get one of they're map sensors and a wideband o2 from Denso or Bosch...I don't see a breakdown of what's really in the box..I don't want to call them with no knowledge at all to request the rest of the information I need, but it seems the more I look into it doesn't seem to be plug and play. I completely understand that I can't plug the thing in and run my car and expect it to be right, lol..talk about information overload. Wires freak me out too, I think I would opt for an assembled unit.

[Alphius]

There is no DIYPNP assembled unit. If wiring scares you, you probably do not want to go with a MegaSquirt. You really have to understand fuel injection to go with one. There is a very steep learning curve.

The MegaSquirt has a MAP sensor onboard.

Even after successful assembly and wiring, there is no tune on the unit suitable for running the engine so tuning would be a by-hand from-scratch sort of thing.

Parts list to build a DIYPNP MegaSquirt would look like this:
1. DIYPNP N76 Kit
2. GM Intake Air Temperature sensor
3. Wideband O2 sensor


Really, you don't need engine management for a high-compression frankenstein build. Your stock ECU can run that just fine.
Doesn't apply to you with an N/A car, but I'll just put this here for anyone else to see:

Easiest build for more power in a 91-94 turbo Legacy:

1. RobTune ECU and 4to2 Ignition Converter
2. JECS MAF
3. TD05-16g or VF39 or equivalent turbo
4. Manual Boost Controller
5. 550 STI Yellow Injectors
6. 06-07 WRX TMIC
7. Downpipe and exhaust

This is a foolproof, plug and play recipe for 260ish whp.

[Legacy777]

cryosystems.com josh. The website kind of sucks,the company is developing a new one. We have some crazy tempering and hold programs with -300 soaks with less than 2 degree deviations, state of the art stuff..I don't know a lot of specifics on these recipes but I'm sure they can handle what you would need. I'm the lead welder/fabricator here so I couldn't set you up for any real knowledge, unless you want some custom fabrication done here...

That's what I meant by uncommon not a tuner screwing your stuff up, I have been to awdtuning shop, very nice place the guys there know what they are doing. Just wondering about it, there is a couple specialty tuners in el Paso too special vehicles is one that does some high powered race porsches and a few 1000 HP mazdas and v8's.

Thanks for the info alphius and josh. I will comb thru this stuff soon...

Those dyno sheets are pretty impressive josh, your 20 year old car would fly if it had wings..I can make you some wings if you would like..lol

Thanks for the info. So besides making the cyro equipment, do you guys also offer cryo treatment service?

Haha....it sounds tempting, but I'm not sure I want the Legacy to fly around However it would get me out of Houston traffic.....

[fre3k5h0w]

No management needed sounds good to me, wiring just makes me thoughtless and don't know where to start. If I get a hold on how it all works I can retain it just have problems with the lift off..lol. seriously all the info I have gathered for the ems sounds pretty neat but I just don't know anything prior or have experience in it..

We do a lot of different treatment, my boss is a metallurgical whiz and programs a lot of custom recipes. As a matter of fact we are going to be treating some transmission output shafts and ring gears for a 72 Chevrolet chevelle drag car, my cams and retainers on Friday. That treatment is going to be about a 12 hour procedure with a 9 hour soak and gradual raise to around 500f for a 2 hour hold. Then to room temp gradually. These machines are amazing for temperature deviation, our house machines are certified within 3 degrees I believe, most companies need certs for under 7 or better, usually better than they expect.

[86BRATMAN]

a little late on the pic, but eg33 on the left, 90-96 ej2w on the right.

[fre3k5h0w]

a little late on the pic, but eg33 on the left, 90-96 ej2w on the right.

Jeez, crazy difference..ill bet those in the 22e will yield a higher cr than a 97-99 25d bottom end with
my 22e heads huh..I see what you mean about the b16a comparison, the typeR domes stick out. Nice thanks
Bratman. How is your build coming along?

[86BRATMAN]

It would be higher than an ej25 bottom end, and in my opinion be a better engine for it. I don't care for the 25d for a number of reasons mainly because you never know what you're going to get with a second hand one.

Engine is all together, waiting on my transmission reseal kit from subaru to put the 5mt back together. They'll both go in when steady spring temps roll back around. I've actually had it together for about 5 months but I didn't want to put it in with the slush box, and it took a while to find a complete manual swap.

[Legacy777]

We do a lot of different treatment, my boss is a metallurgical whiz and programs a lot of custom recipes. As a matter of fact we are going to be treating some transmission output shafts and ring gears for a 72 Chevrolet chevelle drag car, my cams and retainers on Friday. That treatment is going to be about a 12 hour procedure with a 9 hour soak and gradual raise to around 500f for a 2 hour hold. Then to room temp gradually. These machines are amazing for temperature deviation, our house machines are certified within 3 degrees I believe, most companies need certs for under 7 or better, usually better than they expect.

Very cool! I need to replace the rotors on my Legacy so will definitely keep you guys in mind when that time comes.

[fre3k5h0w]

Nice, you should throw your brake pads in there with that too..wasn't able to get my stuff into the treatment yet, which is kind of cool because I wasn't able to find a helpful spring compressor for the valves and springs. So I scrambled and found one this afternoon so I can throw the whole valve train in there.

[Legacy777]

I hadn't thought about treating the brake pads as well. I'm curious what type of benefit the pads would have. I understand the metallurgy associated with the rotors and other metal components, but like I said I hadn't thought about the pads.

[fre3k5h0w]

The backing plates and shims are metal but really the theory of cryo/heat treating is to draw molecules closer together to combat micro-cracking. Brake pads have different types of elements in them organic and metallic so the wear should decrease on those too. I'm not sure if ceramic pads would benefit though.

We are doing a test on rubber even, one of the guys that works with us has some 32" tires from his jeep that he is reporting higher wear rate of two tires that he did not put into the chamber. Seems far fetched to me, but he says its working.

[Legacy777]

Hmm, that's pretty interesting about the rubber.

[fre3k5h0w]

I agree, I thought he was crazy for even trying it because of delamination. Through the years of me working there I have noticed that certain rubbers or rubber compounds put into treatment will split and crack..most notably for me on a set of Klein screw drivers that I bought. That was very upsetting to me, I spent $50 on those drivers. I thought if anything the radials would benefit but to what extent its not like they are in contact or under any real pressure...

[fre3k5h0w]

Well caught quite a surprise in the valve trains of both of my 22e's. I can't believe I didn't see the difference upon teardown.

The 1990 valve train has the pad style rocker arms..and the cams look a little hotter. I don't know about that yet I will be Mic'ing them
For comparison later.

The 95 motor has the roller rocker arms of which I knew would be in there, didn't think the early phase of these motors were different.
Now I'm at a crossroads on which valve train to use, I'm thinking that the roller arms are better for friction, both are hla setups of course but why
Was the pad style discontinued for these motors until the 25d came out. Is the duration and lift the same between these valve trains?

There are also a plug on each head, making me wonder if I have a set if turbo heads but I have never seen a set of the 22t heads. Any thoughts?