legacycentral bbs

Pretty big. It takes up all usable space.

That might actually be a good thing. If it's cramped it will be easier to secure/tighten down. I will just have to settle for a thin/taller exchanger. Silicone Intakes has them. I will do some measuring this weekend and let everyone know what I find out.

The 92-94's may have a little more room, but I still think the 2.5" core is going to be too thick. The issue you run into with the tall skinny ones is they tend not to have larger inlet/outlet ports. Maybe you're get lucky.

Here are my AWIC threads, which may be helpful. I've got lots of pics. The first thread is my original setup, and the second one is with the new radiator.

http://bbs.legacycentral.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=23089

http://bbs.legacycentral.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=35394

I did some measurements. It looks like I can get away with 25in x 5in x 2in

5in height and 2in thick is the limit. If I can find one like that I should be able to mount it right in front of the A/C Condenser and below the bumper beam.

Saleen makes one for Fords that is 24x5x2, but there is limited information online.

*edit*

Found one....

you have gotta be f***ing kidding me!

http://www.stage3motorsports.com/produc ... e-kit.html

I'm probably going to go talk to these guys next week to see if they can make a custom one.

http://www.mattsradiator.com/component/ ... rings.html

Well if you want, give Bell Intercoolers an email/call. They're the ones who did my exchanger.

Here's the guy's contact info I dealt with.

Gerhard Schruf
Bell Intercoolers, Inc.
Tel.830-229-5330
Fax.830-229-5334
gms(at)bellintercoolers.com

Legacy777 wrote:Well if you want, give Bell Intercoolers an email/call. They're the ones who did my exchanger.

Here's the guy's contact info I dealt with.

Gerhard Schruf
Bell Intercoolers, Inc.
Tel.830-229-5330
Fax.830-229-5334
gms(at)bellintercoolers.com

Thanks for the info man!

*Update*

Dug around in the junkyard today and found a Ford Taurus SHO trans cooler for only 10 bucks. It's really big and I think it will cool water well. It also bolts right up to existing holes on the legacy!

Thoughts?

So basiclly you want your system to look sort of like this?

My only tidd bit of info is that you will want a largest rad you can get a hold of. I have the one from my froozen boost kit. I think is just too small for my case, tho i have a swapped turbo aswell.

Tommio RS wrote:My only tidd bit of info is that you will want a largest rad you can get a hold of. I have the one from my froozen boost kit. I think is just too small for my case, tho i have a swapped turbo aswell.

Great info man! Thanks! That said do you think I could. Get away with a smaller a/c condenser?

The a/c condensor is pretty small in thickness already. I don't think you'll be able to go any thinner. You could maybe make it shorter in height, but then the AC system may not function properly.

I really think cutting and notching the bumper beam is the easiest and best solution....but that's just me

I will be using a reservoir. Check this out.

This is from Corky Bell's book Maximum Boost.

Reservoirs

The size of the reservoir is of prime importance to the efficiency of the water-based IC. Consider that most applications of boost will last only a few seconds—say, 15 as a high average. Then it is reasonable to be sure in this interval that any given piece of water will not see the IC unit twice. A pump capability of 10 gallons per minute will move 2.5 gallons in 15 seconds: thus, the ideal size of the reservoir here is 2.5 gallons. Unreasonably large, obvious¬ly, but the point is made that the bigger the reservoir, the greater the time until the water takes its second lap through the IC It is not too difficult to see that as a larger reservoir is used, the need for a front cooler decreases. Consider that the greater the mass of water, the greater the thermal inertia.


Front cooler

The front cooler is the least important part of the IC system, as it is doing most of its work when the vehicle is not operating under boost. At the start of a boost run, the entire system will be at approximately ambient temperature. As boost rises, heating the water in the main core, this heated water must get to the front core before it has any temperature difference with which to drive the heat out. This time delay can be as long as 7 or 8 seconds, depending on the size of the reservoir. That amount of time is typical of a boost application. It is clear, then, that the front cooler will do most of its work after the boost run. Since the temperature difference between the water and the front core is small compared to the temperature difference between the boost charge and the water, the time required to cool the water down is much greater than the time required to heat it up. This is another reason for running the wa¬ter pumps ail the time. The front core does not need to be as big as it may seem at first glance, because the relative cfm rates through the two cores will usual¬ly be heavily biased toward the front cooler. For example, a forward velocity of just 60 mph could potentially put 5280 cfm through a cooler of 1 square foot area. Surely it is another case of bigger is better, but not really enough better to get carried away with huge front coolers.

Seems to me that using a core that is overly large is both unnecessary and probably more straining on the pump with little gains to be had over a smaller core and larger reservoir, thus larger overall capacity of the system. A bleeder valve at the top of the radiator is a must and testing of the intercooler core itself for leaks is VERY important as it could lead catastrophic failure down the road.

Charge-air Heat Exchanger

Although aluminum is by far the most convenient material to use in any IC application, copper core elements, should the situation allow them, can yield a greater heat transfer rate. The large flow areas usually associated with the water IC readily suggest that core thickness should be expanded as far as space permits.

Water will likely find equal access to all the core tubes, but attention should be given to trapped air in the top regions of the core. A simple air bleed can prevent air pockets. A better answer is to put the water in at the low point and take it out at the high point.

Small air leaks in an air/air unit are unimportant, but any water leak in the main heat exchanger core can be a disaster. Thus it is imperative that the unit be pressure checked for leakage prior to use. Ten psi with the core underwater is adequate. Don't be surprised to see air bubbles coming right through cast aluminum.

Here is one test with and without an ice box. (Ford Lightning)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Qe25iCG7Tk

Pretty impressive results. 43RWHP and 41RWTQ.

I am changing my views on this. I will include a reservoir with the kit. It's going to increase the price, but it's going to be well worth it.

I was wondering if I should move the battery to the trunk to mount the reservoir? If that is the case, I will include the wiring to do that too. More to come!

Again....I'll throw my two cents in....

I agree that adding a resevoir is a good idea, but it's not mandetory. You can compensate for the lack of resevoir by oversizing the radiator and to some extent the intercooler. There's a balance between theory and what will actually fit and work in the constraints you have. If you can make a resevoir fit, that's great, it will help, but depending on how you size the exchangers, it may not be that significant a help.

As an Auto-Xer, I can say that having a massive heat exchanger and not so much a massive reservior is preferable in many cases. I'm on boost in short, frequent spurts constantly for up to 80 seconds. A reservoir large enough to prevent a 2nd pass of the water through the charge cooler in that case is just not realistic on a daily driver (I've seen 5-10gallon tanks in the passenger footwell, but I like to carry passengers there). In that case it becomes absolultely necessary for the water to be able to cool down as much as possible for each single pass through the front heat exchanger. This pretty much means running the biggest front cooler you can fit, as well as the highest flowing pump that will not over-pressurize your system. The smallish reservoir that would fit in our engine bay isn't even worth fiddling with in my case (I could fit a good sized one in the fenderwell, however. Maybe in the future). In events with back-back runs, you also need to get the system back to near-ambient temp as fast as possible with the car stationary (I've yet to do a full-day AutoX with my system, so we'll see how well the stock fans do here).

Really, drag-racing and street-racing (illegal drag-racing) are the only cases that I could possibly see you not caring so much about the size of the front heat exchanger.

I'm just saying that if you do add a reservoir, do not think that it negates the need for a large front cooler for many people

Nice sentiment, but eBay parts for more than a genuine Subaru awic goes for? Ehhh, no thanks

"You can't please all the people all the time...... and last night, all those people were at my show"

-Mitch Hedberg

I mean it's nice of you to put this together and share with the community, I just don't see much point. But obviously people are interested so more power to you guys.

Apex3 wrote:I mean it's nice of you to put this together and share with the community, I just don't see much point. But obviously people are interested so more power to you guys.

It's all good man. I just wanted to put together something people could buy without hunting around for parts. Still a process getting everything to work though.

Another thing...

I put a Hallman MBC and Boost Gauge on and realized I was only hitting 5psi of boost. Turned it up to 10psi and it holds until I hit high RPMs. At high RPMs it loses about 4psi of boost. I am convinced I have a cracked waste gate.

Looks like I am going to have to get this fixed before I move ahead with the intercooler.

More to come.

I have the same mbc to go on. Do you have pics, and did you hook it up to the vf11 or td04?

Thesubielover wrote:I have the same mbc to go on. Do you have pics, and did you hook it up to the vf11 or td04?

Hooked it up to the VF11. I had a VF17 on my T-Bird do the same thing and it was a cracked waste gate. That is why I am pretty much convinced. I do still have somewhat stock exhaust though. Hold 10psi fine in any gear but 1st or 2nd... or until it hits high RPMs. Like 4,000. Turned boost back down to 5 until I really figure out what it is.

Called several radiator places today and should be able to get a custom heat exchanger made soon. I might be able to get away with 3 inches if I make a custom mounting plate. I will keep everyone informed of course.

If you push the awic in this setup ut to or beyond 300kw on the crank, will it still do its job?

I'm thinking of putting together a kit for my own car (came with waic as standard) since i live in the same town as the famous Laminova factory.

One step away, not sure yet..

Ubermeister wrote:If you push the awic in this setup ut to or beyond 300kw on the crank, will it still do its job?

I'm thinking of putting together a kit for my own car (came with waic as standard) since i live in the same town as the famous Laminova factory.

One step away, not sure yet..

The kit will safely support 300whp. Anything after that, you are looking into removing the a/c to find space for a bigger exchanger.

300kw is about 400hp so like 350whp. At that point you're pushing it on stock internals. This kit is meant for a stockish setup mind you.

I think it really depends on the variables....ambient temp, radiator size, pump flow rates, etc.

There are some tweaks you could do to the stock setup to upgrade its capacity. You could add a resevoir, upgrade the front exchange, and/or upgrade the stock pump.

I'm using a stock Subaru AWIC core, but have upgraded to a custom front exchanger and pump.

I have read that the original Air-water-intercooler on 1st gen Legacy has an air flowrate of 230cfm.

My setup is: Forged conrods and pistons, E-manage ultimate, Td0516G big, 550CC injectors.

Running about 15Psi of boost, and i get a feeling that my intercooler is a bottleneck in my system. (getting increasing knock in high rpm/boost.

Since im testing E85 at the moment, im thinking about bypassing the intercooler, ie. plumb the turbo directly to the throttlebody, lower the boost and test if the car feels better to drive.

My plan is go get a nice chargecooler, add another electric waterpump in series with the stock one (one on each side of the system) + fit the largest possible radiator (since i dont have ac, i have more room..)

I live in Sweden, not very high temperatures, and its a daily driven car, so i think i will do without an watertank.

Hard to come by a nice fitting chargecooler (for resonable prices) in Europe, so i think i will buy from Votionspeed or Frozenboost.