legacycentral bbs

i emailed him a little while ago. I don't remember with email to use.

do you by chance have it?

This one should work: rob@robtune.com

or try: rob.files@gmail.com

And you may not get an answer right away (week or so).

GL,
TD

AWESOME! thank you.

Yeah I know it usually takes a little while for him to respond. It's not a huge deal since the car runs exactly like it's suppose to with normal driving.

Just out of curiosity (if you know) what is your AFR when doing a pull at around 18psi?

logan9691 wrote:
Just out of curiosity (if you know) what is your AFR when doing a pull at around 18psi?

I don't have a WB so can't say. I hope to get the car dyno'd in the next month and the dyno shop will have one.

TD

Edit: Runs about 11-11.5...see below....

ok cool.

post the results here so we can all see

logan9691 wrote:AWESOME! thank you.

Yeah I know it usually takes a little while for him to respond. It's not a huge deal since the car runs exactly like it's suppose to with normal driving.

Just out of curiosity (if you know) what is your AFR when doing a pull at around 18psi?

Not the same conditions, but my AFR's as measured with an LC-1 are 10.8-11.3 for 16ish PSI with stock 22T, 440cc's, and TD-04.

Logan: perform a simple test to satisfy my curiosity, if you would.
Turn off the LC and hold the engine at the same rpm that LC does. Observe the A/F ratio and tell us what it is.

hmmm the only way I can think of turning off Launch Control would be to be at a slight role so the car thinks I am moving enough so it won't allow boost to build.

But good idea. I'll give that a shot today.

Well I today while driving I put the car in neutral and held the rpms at around 5k and it got richer, hitting about 12 on the gauge, rather then 18 during launch control.

You'd of course have to check with Rob, but I suspect that the AFR is a function of how the ECU controls RPM for launch control. It should be fine so long as it doesn't run that lean under load.

Date:12/4/2013 - Scroll down for 2nd set on 5/23/14 after TBE, etc. update.
Weather: 32F degrees at ~sea level in Seattle
Dyno: Mustang at R & H garage (Mustangs read the lowest, from what I've read, but may be 'truest' #'s)
Stock STI on this dyno: 220HP / 220 ft-lbs

Wheel Horsepower*: 183 @ 5251 RPM - weather correction factor (wcf) / 193 max
Wheel Torque: 234 @ 3527 RPM -Wcf / 246 max

Setup:
Stock EJ22T and heads
TMIC
"550" STI injectors (525cc)
TD05H (with 90 degree inlet from '93-'96 wrx/STI)
3" bellmouth down pipe
STI Fuel Pump
Rob Tune EJ20G ecu and ignition converter
JECS "green label" MAF
Snorkus removed

--MBC set to ~18 psi
--Pull done in 4th gear.


I'm pretty happy with the results overall. The tuner suggested I go one step colder (7 for ngk's) on the plugs and tighten up even more on the gap. I'm at .030" and he suggested all the way down to .024". Also need to get rid of the stock exhaust behind my aftermarket down pipe.

Graphs show a bumpy curve after 4k RPM which is why the tuner suggested the colder plugs. Also runs rich -around 11.0 AFR, but likely due to needing different plugs / gap to burn the fuel.



Graph:


Colder plug info HERE:

A good rule of thumb is, one Heat Range colder for every 75–100hp added.

Edit: 5-23-14 - Updated Dyno info. See changes under Setup below.

Weather: 65F degrees at ~sea level in Redmond
Dyno: Mustang at Dyno Authority
Stock STI on this dyno: 240HP / 240 ft-lbs

Two pulls w/2 distinct results. Tuner said may be due to heat soak of the TMIC, although engine was allowed to cool off between pulls.

Run 1
HP: 229 HP
Torque: 309 ft-lbs
Run 2
HP: 219 HP
Torque: 287 ft-lbs

Setup:
Stock EJ22T and heads
TMIC
"550" STI injectors (525cc)
TD05H (with 90 degree inlet from '93-'96 wrx/STI)
3" bellmouth down pipe - NEW: 3" all the way back - added a resonator and Dynomax VT muffler
STI Fuel Pump
Rob Tune EJ20G ecu and ignition converter
JECS "green label" MAF
Snorkus removed
NEW: Mopar (Neon, etc.) coil pack and newer-style EJ22 wires.
NEW: Stock BRK6E plugs gapped to .028

--MBC set to ~18.5 psi; pull done in 4th gear.

After updating my ignition system w/the Mopar coil pack and getting a full 3" TBE installed I went back to Seattle for another Dyno pull (or 2). Unfortunately, R & H garage is 'in transition' and sold their Mustang, so my original goal of getting runs on the same dyno after the updates is unobtainable. I found another Mustang Dyno shop - Dyno Authority in Redmond, WA. It's owned by Marco Yaya. He was very methodical about the process. Spent 20 minutes checking out my car, followed by 2 "Parasitic Loss / Coast Down" tests to get the most accurate results.

The car is running very well, w/the only issue the continued 'cold-start EJ20G phenomenon' that I have yet to fix. The car starts on the 2nd or 3rd try and then runs normally, and the car is fun to drive. On the trip over and back from Seattle, it cruised well and even had fun over the Pass playing catch-up w/a Shelby 500 and R8 (so damn cool).

However, I wasn't prepared for these results! The #'s are hard to believe, as their improvement was never felt in my butt-dyno.

Using the MAX values above (not the weather-corrected), the HP increase was 36 on the 1st run; 26 on the 2nd. The ft-lbs went up a whopping 63 on the 1st run; 41 on the 2nd.

As noted above, this dyno does make slightly higher #'s for a stock STI 240/240 vs. 220/220, per Marco. If I take that into account, and subtract 20, then the #'s are probably closer to reality and comparable. I was also running about ~.5 more boost, which is worth a few.

Marco also suggested a cooler plug. I mentioned I'd tried the one-step colder 7's and the plugs were a scary (to me) white color, but he stated that wasn't the true measure; check the AFRs. I recently bought a WB, so I may play w/that but really the car is running so well - why bother??? Also, he thought the AFR's were fine on the two runs @ his shop.

Run 1:


Run 2:



*Stock EJ22T Wheel HP/Torque = 130/150; 160/180 @ the CRANK.

Nice. Thanks for sharing!

I'm sure having different heads (more CFM flow) and the unrestricted exhaust would bump those numbers up a fair amount. I know that my full 3" catless turbo back exhaust makes a world of difference for allowing the turbo to breathe out. Not much you can do about the 90* turbo inlet though.

Either way those are some great numbers with minimal mods. Congrats!!

236ft-lbs @ the wheels with a stock exhaust is pretty tits! I'd bet the exhaust alone would free up a lot of power up top.

Good numbers wtdash! Thanks for sharing.

beatersubi wrote:You'd of course have to check with Rob, but I suspect that the AFR is a function of how the ECU controls RPM for launch control. It should be fine so long as it doesn't run that lean under load.

The launch control code simply activates the fuel cut limiter at a lower RPM. Since it's cutting fuel to hold the RPM there, it goes lean. Same thing you see if you hit the normal rev cut as well.

wtdash wrote:Date:12/4/2013
Weather:32F degrees at ~sea level in Seattle
Dyno: Mustang at R & H garage (Mustangs read the lowest, from what I've read, but may be 'truest' #'s)
Stock STI on this dyno: 220HP / 220 ft-lbs

Wheel Horsepower*: 183 @ 5251 RPM - weather corrected (wcf) / 193 max
Wheel Torque: 234 @ 3527 RPM -Wcf / 246 max

Setup:
Stock EJ22T and heads
TMIC
"550" STI injectors (525cc)
TD05H (with 90 degree inlet from '93-'96 wrx/STI)
3" bellmouth down pipe
STI Fuel Pump
Rob Tune EJ20G ecu and ignition converter
JECS "green label" MAF
Snorkus removed


I'm pretty happy with the results overall. The tuner suggested I go one step colder (7 for ngk's) on the plugs and tighten up even more on the gap. I'm at .030" and he suggested all the way down to .024". Also need to get rid of the stock exhaust behind my aftermarket down pipe.

Graphs show a bumpy curve after 4k RPM which is why the tuner suggested the colder plugs. Also runs rich -around 11.0 AFR, but likely due to needing different plugs / gap to burn the fuel.

--MBC set to ~18 psi; pull done in 4th gear.

Graph:


*Stock EJ22T Wheel HP/Torque = 130/150; 160/180 @ the CRANK.

Not bad. I believe I hit about 225 WHP on that same dyno at R&H garage a year and a half ago. DOHC heads and I am told my TD05 is an 18g for whatever that's worth.

It would be nice to figure out this stupid electrical issue which I think is the engine harness and go back up and dyno it again. I've sinced removed my cat which was almost completely clogged up. Also, when I dynoed mine it was probably more like 70 degrees out. I don't know if that makes a big difference or not.

A dyno graph usually will incorporate a "Weather Correction Factor" that accounts for differences in temperature and humidity when running on the same dyno in order to provide comparable numbers from runs on different days.

kimokalihi wrote:
Not bad. I believe I hit about 225 WHP on that same dyno at R&H garage a year and a half ago. DOHC heads and I am told my TD05 is an 18g for whatever that's worth.

DOHC heads will get your HP closer to your Torque and that 18G is 1 or 2 steps bigger than my TD05H. I think the TD05H = TD05-16G - aka 'small 16G' that I've seen online.

TD

wtdash wrote:

logan9691 wrote:
Just out of curiosity (if you know) what is your AFR when doing a pull at around 18psi?

I don't have a WB so can't say. I hope to get the car dyno'd in the next month and the dyno shop will have one.

TD

Edit: Runs about 11-11.5...pretty rich.

11-11.5 really isn't that rich. That's about where you want your AFR's. 12 may make more power, but it's on the ragid edge and more prone to detonation if there's any sort of hiccup in the fueling. The stock turbo legacy ECU ran around 10-10.5, and that was very rich.

Yeah, think about it this way: rich is safe. Given the fact that Rob is mailing out a tune for cars with 20 year old fuel and wiring systems, and all manner of various airflow differences, allowing them to run at 11.0-11.5 (mine runs at 10.8-11.3 depending) is just fine.

Running the ragged edge is for people who can afford to rebuild their 2.5 STi swap on a regular basis.

wtdash wrote:Date:12/4/2013
Weather:32F degrees at ~sea level in Seattle
Dyno: Mustang at R & H garage (Mustangs read the lowest, from what I've read, but may be 'truest' #'s)
Stock STI on this dyno: 220HP / 220 ft-lbs

Wheel Horsepower*: 183 @ 5251 RPM - weather correction factor (wcf) / 193 max
Wheel Torque: 234 @ 3527 RPM -Wcf / 246 max

Setup:
Stock EJ22T and heads
TMIC
"550" STI injectors (525cc)
TD05H (with 90 degree inlet from '93-'96 wrx/STI)
3" bellmouth down pipe
STI Fuel Pump
Rob Tune EJ20G ecu and ignition converter
JECS "green label" MAF
Snorkus removed

--MBC set to ~18 psi
--Pull done in 4th gear.


I'm pretty happy with the results overall. The tuner suggested I go one step colder (7 for ngk's) on the plugs and tighten up even more on the gap. I'm at .030" and he suggested all the way down to .024". Also need to get rid of the stock exhaust behind my aftermarket down pipe.

Graphs show a bumpy curve after 4k RPM which is why the tuner suggested the colder plugs. Also runs rich -around 11.0 AFR, but likely due to needing different plugs / gap to burn the fuel.



Graph:


Colder plug info HERE:

A good rule of thumb is, one Heat Range colder for every 75–100hp added.

*Stock EJ22T Wheel HP/Torque = 130/150; 160/180 @ the CRANK.

Todd,

As I mentioned, 11-11.5 to 1 AFR is about where you want to run. Do you know what Rob's ECU is dialed in to run at?

Before you go and change plugs, I'd suggest you take a look at the plugs that are currently in there. If they look like they've been overheated, then yes it might be good to go to a colder plug. However, colder plugs IMO are one of those car lores from the old days and people automatically assume by putting more HP down you need colder plugs. My question would be, what heat range plug does the STi have? If it's the same, I think you'll be alright with the plug you have.

The jagged curve could be an indication of a weak ignition system where the spark is being extinguished and then relit. As I mentioned, I'd pull the old plugs out after running them for a while (if they're new) and see what they look like. Depending on what you see should drive your decision for colder plugs. You can try playing with the gap some more by closing it and see if that seems to make any difference.

Legacy777 wrote:

wtdash wrote: Todd,

As I mentioned, 11-11.5 to 1 AFR is about where you want to run. Do you know what Rob's ECU is dialed in to run at?
According to an email, "11.1:1 AFR tune" when on boost. His car: "I am at around 11.5-.7". So, Yes as ScottyS mentioned, Rob is tuning for a wide range of conditions and Richer is Better (and Safer).


My question would be, what heat range plug does the STi have?
NGK 6 >>>

Per Unabomober on NASIOC:

STi + 2.5L turbo owners:

The correct spark plug for you is SOA part number 22401AA630 AKA NGK ILFR6B. A substitute might be LFR6A-11 or LFR6AIX-11 if you want iridium.

Stock boost on an STi is 14.7 psi w/the VF39/43/48; WRX = 13.5 psi (TD04).

You can try playing with the gap some more by closing it and see if that seems to make any difference.

Sounds like this makes more sense than swapping plugs, but my main thought is that I'm already running the gap considerably less than the stock .044 plug gap, and it appears I'm having issues. I had this reply over on LegacyGT.com:

I run the ngk 7e with a .024 gap, John at outfrontmotorsports recommended this and he's probably been tuning subarus longer than most in the US. He's been installing ej20g's in sandrails since the early 90's, now he's getting 7-1100hp with the H6's

The tuner @ R&H where I did my dyno pull said my 'butt dyno' should feel a difference if the plugs / gap make a difference.

So, I'll play w/the gap, since that's easy enough to do and a free 'mod'.

Thanks for the feedback!

Yeah, try the gap first and if you don't feel any difference, try a colder plug.

The thing with the colder plug is that if you don't run around in full boost all the time or even part of the time the plug will not reach optimum temperature and your off boost performance and fuel mileage may suffer.

If you find the gap change on the stock plug doesn't do much and the colder plug affects things negatively or not at all, you may want to look into a MSD DIS2 igntiion system (assuming you are still running the wasted spark setup).

Also just make sure that all wiring and connectors associated with spark are either refreshed or otherwise solid. Grounding too.

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