legacycentral bbs

Hello all!
I just got back a while ago from the stealership, they had a special introduction for the new legacy gt turbo...snacks and refreshments, and demo vehicle for test drives, another just to check out. They are gorgeous...no HID's though...
I got to sit in the drivers seat and fiddle, turn in on, check out the sweet gauge warmup thing....they are so sweet! Its definately a nice package, a good value. Its amazing how far subaru has come in terms of fit and finish, and style, especially interior material quality. A little sad to see them go "upscale" but I do think they represent a good value...
Thoughts?
Thanks

I like them they are very sleek and stylish, cant wait until a tuner gets ahold of one watch out!

I would really like to own one at some point. Hopefully in a few years I'll be able to pick up a nicely used one . It's a beautiful car, especially the wagon. Much prettier than the GD Impreza's

-Brian

I'm going to have a difficult time choosing between the STi the new Legacy when it comes time for a new car. Those seem to be the only 2 cars that meet my criterion for a new car.

Phil. . . . I can make that decision A LOT easier for you.

Legacy GT - Excellent daily driver with luxurious appointments. Larger, better mileage, more comfortable than STi.

Impreza STi - Not as friendly as Legacy, but much better platform for ALL types of racing, as well as huge market for upgrades to engine, suspension, body, interior, etc.

They're priced within about $1000 of each other . . . THAT'S the hardest part of it all. . . either way, you're looking at around $31,000 new.

Legacy, hands down. I cant barely use 160 hp, what am i going to do with 300?

besides, legacy looks less like a hot wheels

I thought the legacy was cheaper....isn't the GT turbo limited only like 29K? msrp...

LaureltheQueen wrote:Legacy, hands down. I cant barely use 160 hp, what am i going to do with 300?

besides, legacy looks less like a hot wheels

Gotta look at the torque curve

Surprisingly if you look at all the hp/torque ratings for the legacy, turbo legacy, 2.5 rs, wrx, & sti......you'll see something a little different with the turbo legacy. It makes its max torque at an insanely low rpm. This translates into a lot faster feeling car.

Here's a blurb from Larry Witherspoon....

I Have a long term project to upgrade a spare EJ22T engine, and I think you guys might like to bounce some engine design opinions around

Even with the introduction of the STi, I still believe the EJ22T is the strongest production block Subaru has ever made, and would like to stay with it, although my modest desire to double the 160 factory horsepower of the production engine can be easily accommodated by the new age blocks out there now.

A while back I spent big bucks to have heads and valves from a new Phase II 2001 RS 2.5 engine reworked and upgraded by Dan Paramore

http://www.dprracing.com/ and http://www.dprracing2.com/home.html

Those heads are for sale, and anybody that wants pictures and what I call the full late nite TV infomercial about them send me email


I decided against using them, mainly because of the lack of some features not present on the 2.5 heads as on the stock EJ22T heads.

Specifically, the EJ22T head coolant passages match the design of the EJ22T block, and there are 3 holes in the right cylinder head for the turbo oil supply, oil return, and coolant return

Anybody out there know if those features are present on the 2.0T or 2.5T turbo heads ?

Another concern I had about using the 2.5 heads on the 2.2T block was the resulting compression ratio (C/R).

Increasing the 2.2 displacement is one of the considerations for my project.

What is the resulting C/R when a 2.5 crank is used in a 2.2T block ?

Are new pistons necessary to prevent the EJ22T engine from going from a non-interference to an interference condition ?

Also the 2.5 heads have larger intake valves, which may be desirable for higher overall peak power and rpm potential, but my target is low end street torque, and the smaller EJ22T valves may result in higher intake flow at low RPM, and actually be more conducive to the higher low end torque I seek, especially with the proper cam.

The factory REDUCED the size of the intake valves on the 2.2 turbo engine vs the 2.2 normally aspirated (N/A) engine. Was that because the automotive engineers designing the EJ22T engine to accommodate forced induction are stupid ? I don't think so. The increase in torque produced by the turbo version of the 2.2 engine over that of the 2.2 N/A version, is significantly greater than the horsepower increase over that of the 2.2 N/A version. Although closely related, low speed performance, AKA acceleration, is spelled TORQUE, not POWER.

To put things into perspective consider the following with special attention to engine speeds

The 3.3 liter SVX was rated at
230 HP @ 5400 RPM and 228 Lbs-Ft of torque at 4400 RPM

The new 3.0 liter H-6 engines are rated at
212 HP @ 6000 RPM and 210 Lbs-Ft @ 4400 RPM

The 2.5 RS engine that my reworked heads are from, spec'd out at
165 HP @ 5600 RPM and 166 Lbs-Ft @ 4000 RPM

The North American WRX 2.0 engine is rated at 13.5 PSI max boost
227 HP @ 6000 RPM and 217 Lbs-Ft @ 4000 RPM

The impressive 2.5 STi factory numbers are given with 14.5 PSI max boost as
300 HP @ 6000 RPM and 300 Lbs-Ft @ 4000 RPM max boost 14.5 PSI

The original stock EJ22 engine provided
130 HP @ 5600 RPM and 137 Lbs-Ft at 4400 RPM

The figures for the lowly factory turbo EJ22T engine at 8.7 PSI max boost come in at
160 HP @ 5600 RPM, but check the torque...181 Lbs-Ft at only 2800 RPM

That's a 23% power increase and a 32% torque increase, but the 32% torque increase is at a 36% lower engine speed. The max torque comes at an engine speed that's less than two thirds that of the normally aspirated engine

None of the other engines have a torque band shifted to the left in the RPM range like the EJ22T

My desire is to expand the power and torque curves without shifting them, with engine balancing, increased boost, enhanced ignition and induction controls, and perhaps some lighter components.

Power and torque values with respect to boost are not exactly linear, but if we just look for some ballpark ratio approximations for reference points, and provide the EJ22T engine with as much boost as the STi engine we get 267 HP and 302 Lbs-Ft. That's without all the other improvements.

And there is something just plain appealing to me about working with the type engine that originally came in the car without changing too much unnecessarily. Especially if the gains achieved are at the expense of headaches to get there, and more importantly, if those changes bring a higher level of risk to reliability and durability in the final result.

Somebody that want's fancy upgraded 2.5 Phase II heads please buy mine so I can have more money for hot rod work, and you can save money on fancy upgraded 2.5 Phase II heads.

Larry Witherspoon

i love the lower rpm torque, definitely.

I'm just saying, with 160 hp, i still dont see need twice that, it's scary

I saw my first 05 Legacy GT today at the dealer! It was a black 2.5GT Wagon 5MT with a Momo shift knob.

The car is even more beautiful in person than it is in the pics. Subaru has never made a better looking car, period.

Also, IIRC, the sticker on it was $27k something...

I wished I had a camera with me then

maybe it's 27 plus navigation and everything else they'll throw on there

No navigation. The guys on legacysti cry about it all the time. Personally I'll just buy a portable, reliable $10 map for the few times I need it.

Steve

The base MSRP for the Legacy 2.5 GT sedan is $25,995 according to Subaru of America's web site.

Steve - Yeah, those "maps" are pretty advanced. I hear the new ones can even run when your battery's dead!

Laurel my dear.....you can never have too much power and yes...yes I am a guy...lol.

Yeah screw the nav stuff.....I really don't care. I am a little ticked they didn't put HID's on though. I'm goin to try and go see one of the new legacies this weekend. I'll definitely take some pics.

art got to drive one. that slut

LaureltheQueen wrote:maybe it's 27 plus navigation and everything else they'll throw on there

The 2.5GT Limited MSRPs for $29,695 (with the optional 5A tranny)

So yeah. . . within about $1,000 of the STi, depending on configuration. (I always like to highball things to reflect real-world pricing, demand, etc.)




And yes, I AM a slut.

I like the Legacy better than the STi for the slight cost advantage, and for the appearance and utility. If I really wanted to I'm pretty sure I could get the Legacy GT to outperform a stock STi without too much trouble. And you'd be a lot more likely to cruise past a bear safely in a Legacy than an STi. I also doubt Legacies are going to achieve the same theft rate STis have managed.

I frankly think halogens are better than HIDs -- the cost difference really is immense and halogens perform better under many conditions.

I do want to know more about the headlamp beam patterns though.

Laurel - There is no such thing as to much power. To little traction is where problems come into the picture.

It would take quite a bit of thought for me to decide between the two cars. I'm pretty much set on one or the other for my next vehicle.

Is the 2.5GT available in a 6-speed, or is it just the 5-speed?

Phil. . . for now, until the rumors of bringing a Legacy STi to the states materializes, the Legacies will have 5-speed manuals. They ARE beefed-up, though. . . not as easy to break as the WRX's.

And I have to agree with the power statement, Phil. I wondered how I'd adjust to ALWAYS having 300hp under my foot. . . and you know what? I do just fine. In fact, I find that I drive a tad slower and much more cautiously out of respect for said power.

Rain and ice/snow are the only times you really have to watch it. . . even with AWD the thing can get a little tail-happy.

I also agree that the 2.5GT is a better overall car than the STi. FAR more useful, far less ostentatious, and the power seems. . . well, perfect. As I said before. . . had I not picked up an STi last October, I'd be driving a 2.5GT wagon at this very moment.

why couldnt you wait

I think the new GT's are sweet! They might be at the local dwealership now but weren't a couple weeks back when I checked. I saw a black GT wagon at STPR though that was lookin' very good!

In terms of getting a Legacy GT or STI, I say wait and get a Legacy STI!

vrg3 wrote:
I do want to know more about the headlamp beam patterns though.

Vikash and his beam patterns!

THAWA wrote:why couldnt you wait

Iunno. . . .

Actually, the STi gets so many gawkers. . . it's kinda funny seeing people's reactions to both a rediculously huge hoodscoop and spoiler.

they're shocked that someone would have such little respect for their eyes. :-p


I heard from a police officer that most drivers have more power than they can handle, and i definitely agree. While I definitely would love to have a car that accelerates faster at times like when I'm getting on the freeway and passing people, I realize when I autocross that I dont even have control of the measly 160 stock hp the car puts out now.

In my experience, most police officers have more power than they can handle, too.

But that's why I try to recommend slow cars to learner drivers. Part for safety, part to really learn how to drive without using the gas pedal as a crutch. However, powerslides are fun, too.

Steve